Originally posted by myth
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostGod hasn't changed. Why should the songs that point to Him and teach sound doctrine change to suit the culture? And the church we follow often has full orchestra and a pipe organ, and they use sound hymns and some new ones by folk like the Getty's who write wonderful modern hymns.
By that logic, your church should not be using "modern" hymns or any musical instrumentation that wasn't around during the founding of the early Church. You should be sticking to animal-skin drums, cymbals, and basic horn instruments as well as whatever song lyrics you can find from the early church (the Psalms would be a great source, I suppose). Because if the songs point the Him and teach sound doctrine, why should they change to suit our culture?"If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by myth View PostWhy should the songs not change? Unless we're talking about music that teaches unsound doctrine or heresy, I don't follow your argument.
By that logic, your church should not be using "modern" hymns or any musical instrumentation that wasn't around during the founding of the early Church. You should be sticking to animal-skin drums, cymbals, and basic horn instruments as well as whatever song lyrics you can find from the early church (the Psalms would be a great source, I suppose). Because if the songs point the Him and teach sound doctrine, why should they change to suit our culture?
It is designed to bring about emotional response by its repetition and banal words. It is, really, dumbed down music for dumbed down people who are not taught the deep theological things of the Lord.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostI am referring to modern music that doesn't point to God but points to the person singing. Music that doesn't teach the deep theological truths about God and His nature but fall back on human emotions. That is the majority of modern worship music.
It is designed to bring about emotional response by its repetition and banal words. It is, really, dumbed down music for dumbed down people who are not taught the deep theological things of the Lord.
On what basis are you deciding that the music points to the person singing and not to God? Are there any examples you can think of? I'm curious because, well, most of the modern praise and worship music I've heard is so light-footed theologically and vague in detail (the 7-11 trope, lol) that one could interpret multiple shades of meaning to the lyrics. Is it necessary for music in the church to teach "deep theology", or is it ok for the music to promote a reverence of God and a mindfulness of the Numinous?
Seriously, most of the modern worship music I've heard is not teaching "deep theological things", but at the same time it's not advocating heresy either. I think it more plausible to advance an argument that some modern worship music is performed in a way that glorifies the person singing, but I'm not so sure it's common for the lyrics to glorify the person singing.
If the music promotes a worshipful mindset in preparation for the preaching of God's Word, and assuming that the preaching is biblically sound....I'm really having trouble seeing what the problem is."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View PostOccasionally, you encounter the variant of 11 words sung 7 times.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Responding selectively....
Originally posted by myth View PostI'm interested by how many people here don't like modern worship music.
A) Actually SAYS something - some content - rather than just breathless ooing about deer panting for water
2) and is SINGABLE -- something that has a recognizable melody that doesn't just bounce up and down with no rhyme or reason.
Some of the "Modern Hymn Movement" stuff is at the top of my list for "other than standard hymns".
I grew up with hymns and therefore have a nostalgic fondness for them, but by and large I always found them boring. It was almost like they put me into a comatose state of near-sleep. Maybe because of my youth, I just wasn't interested in the lyrics.
But modern worship music was even more boring to me, depending on how it was presented. As in, if you're playing it with just a piano and some vocals, I just can't get into it. So compared to that presentation, I actually preferred a lot of the hymns.
For reference, my personal preference in music runs to rock, metal and metalcore bands like Demon Hunter, Disciple, Red, August Burns Red, Skillet, and Thousand Foot Krutch to name a few. It's music that's..."busier" than most hymns or modern worship songs.
So, I went through a period of time not that long ago where I didn't regularly attend church. I wasn't in rebellion against God or anything, I just had trouble finding a church where I felt like I belonged and for years my work schedule made regular attendance difficult.
So a little over a year ago I began to feel convicted about not having found a church family. I started looking for a church again, including looking further away from where I live than I had previously explored. I landed at this big (for our area church) with a modern praise and worship band. And you know what? For the first time in my life, I found that modern praise and worship music actually enhanced the worship experience! Keep in mind, I'm saying this as someone who's made all the same jokes about modern worship music (and it's still not something I regularly choose to listen to on my own).
I'd guess that before the modern information age, (religious) songs served as a means of storytelling and a way of teaching theology in a much bigger way than they do now. In the age of 24-hour news cycles, online university education, and Google...modern praise and worship music is being intentionally written to evoke a sense of reverence and worship, with less emphasis on a detailed message or well-articulated theology, because it's looking to fill a very niche role. Additionally, I'd point out that music with complex lyrics seems suited to an environment where there are less instruments playing the music.
The choice of music in worship is largely a matter of preference. My church makes a nod to those who still like the hymns by doing a monthly hymn-service, since all the other services have modern worship music.
In several recent experiences, the "Praise and Worship Team", to me, seems so much like they're doing their own little thing up there - performing - and in their own little world. At one of the Churches I visited, it really seemed like the P&WT thought they were "all that and a bag of chips" --- there just seemed to act like they were above everybody else, not even joining in on the fellowship part, coming in at the beginning of the service, going right to "the stage", and leaving immediately after their "performance". It was a tad off-putting.
Also, CP: glad to hear things are going well for your church! :PThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostResponding selectively....
I'm good with newer music that...
A) Actually SAYS something - some content - rather than just breathless ooing about deer panting for water
2) and is SINGABLE -- something that has a recognizable melody that doesn't just bounce up and down with no rhyme or reason.
Some of the "Modern Hymn Movement" stuff is at the top of my list for "other than standard hymns".
You've made me think about why I think about this.
In several recent experiences, the "Praise and Worship Team", to me, seems so much like they're doing their own little thing up there - performing - and in their own little world. At one of the Churches I visited, it really seemed like the P&WT thought they were "all that and a bag of chips" --- there just seemed to act like they were above everybody else, not even joining in on the fellowship part, coming in at the beginning of the service, going right to "the stage", and leaving immediately after their "performance". It was a tad off-putting.
If it gets any better, I don't know what I'm gonna do!
But what you're talking about is why I had a hard time worshiping at some churches. I just couldn't get into it if the worship team seemed self-serving. And then other churches, the preaching was a little too "theology-light" or even more happy-go-lucky Prosperity Gospel nonsense. Others, I sensed theological differences that might eventually create trouble."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by myth View PostI've visited places where I felt like the praise and worship just wasn't authentic. It's hard to quantify why I thought that about some places and not where I go to church now. Our team does leave the stage after their set, with only some coming to sit any in given service. But that doesn't look so bad to me, as I'm serving on the security team and know that their team is there for about four to six hours on Sunday mornings, then again Sunday evenings, and some of them again on Wednesdays...plus their rehearsals during the week. Most sit with their family during one service, and fellowship in the lobby area during the other services...so they're actually listening to the Sunday morning sermon three times in a row (since we have the service broadcast on TVs in the lobby).
But what you're talking about is why I had a hard time worshiping at some churches. I just couldn't get into it if the worship team seemed self-serving. And then other churches, the preaching was a little too "theology-light" or even more happy-go-lucky Prosperity Gospel nonsense. Others, I sensed theological differences that might eventually create trouble.
In the Bible Church I visited (for more than a few Sundays) the people would largely just be "standing there" while the P&WT went through their 'performance', but every once in a while, they would sing an old hymn, and I'd look around and EVERYBODY would be singing 'with gusto'. I want to shout "HEY --- DO YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING??????"
You're not LEADING if nobody is FOLLOWING - all you're doing is PERFORMING.
On the other hand, I was in another Bible Church where the P&WT seemed genuinely engaged with the audience, and it was evident that they were actually LEADING in worship, not just performing.
So....The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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OK, then there's the local Cowboy Church (from which we just gained a few families) that has (according to their own radio ads) "an Opry Class Country Worship Team". I know three of these guys personally, and they play at the local tavern on Friday and Saturday nights -- FOR REAL!
This past Valentine's day, their radio ad actually said "Come to Church for a special Valentine's Dance and have a BootScootBoogie Good Time!" Their background music for this ad was, indeed, "Boot Scoot Boogie".
But they DO draw a crowd!!!!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by myth View PostHmm, ok. Please don't take the rest of what I ask as sarcasm, I'm genuinely curious in your view.
On what basis are you deciding that the music points to the person singing and not to God? Are there any examples you can think of? I'm curious because, well, most of the modern praise and worship music I've heard is so light-footed theologically and vague in detail (the 7-11 trope, lol) that one could interpret multiple shades of meaning to the lyrics. Is it necessary for music in the church to teach "deep theology", or is it ok for the music to promote a reverence of God and a mindfulness of the Numinous?
Seriously, most of the modern worship music I've heard is not teaching "deep theological things", but at the same time it's not advocating heresy either. I think it more plausible to advance an argument that some modern worship music is performed in a way that glorifies the person singing, but I'm not so sure it's common for the lyrics to glorify the person singing.
If the music promotes a worshipful mindset in preparation for the preaching of God's Word, and assuming that the preaching is biblically sound....I'm really having trouble seeing what the problem is.
"I Could Sing of Your Love Forever"
Over the mountains and the sea,
Your river runs with love for me,
And I will open up my heart
And let the healer set me free.
I'm happy to be in the truth,
And I will daily lift my hands:
For I will always sing of when
Your love came down.
I could sing of your love forever,
I could sing of your love forever,
I could sing of your love forever,
I could sing of your love forever.
I could sing of your love forever.
Oh, I feel like dancing
It's foolishness I know;
But when the world has seen the light,
They will dance with joy,
Like we're dancing now.
So light on truth and heavy on repetition. Repetition, used properly, is a good tool to help us remember certain truths, but used in this way is akin to "vain repetitions" which the pagans were guilty of in Paul's time.
Another badly repetitive song with little substance:
"Good, Good Father"
I've seen many searching for answers far and wide
But I know we're all searching
For answers only you provide
'Cause you know just what we need
Before we say a word
You're a good good father
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
Because you are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways to us
You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways to us
Oh, it's love so undeniable
I, I can hardly speak
Peace so unexplainable
I, I can hardly think
As you call me deeper still
As you call me deeper still
As you call me deeper still
Into love, love, love
You're a good good father
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
You're a good good father
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
You're a good good father
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
You're a good good father
You are perfect in all of your ways
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
You are perfect in all of your ways
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
This one could be about a human, because it doesn't even mention God or Christ:
"Draw Me Close"
Draw me close to you
Never let me go
I lay it all down again
To hear you say that I'm your friend
You are my desire
No one else will do
'Cause nothing else can take your place
To feel the warmth of your embrace
Help me find the way
Bring me back to you
You're all I want
You're all I've ever needed
You're all I want
Help me know you are near
Draw me close to you
Never let me go
I lay it all down again
To hear you say that I'm your friend
You are my desire
No one else will do
'Cause nothing else can take your place
To feel the warmth of your embrace
Help me find the way
Bring me back to you
You're all I want
You're all I've ever needed
You're all I want
Help me know you are near
You're all I want
You're all I've ever needed
You're all I want
Help me know you are near
Help me know you are near
Help me know you are near
And you know as well as I do that there are a myriad of songs that really don't belong in a church setting that people are singing because they are catchy, or repetitive and easy to remember, etc.
Look. Music is not the be all and end all of worship. More important aspects of worship are the message and the scripture and the prayer. Music is an add on, not all there is and worship doesn't stop when the music is over. The music should be memorable because it focuses on God and not on the ones singing.
It is not entertainment, it is a collective joining together to sing about God's attributes and what He has done for us and what He will do for us. There are some bad hymns from the past, I'm not denying that, but the wealth of music that is available to us that teaches sound doctrine and doesn't attempt to goad us into an emotional response is worthy of us paying attention to.
As I've already said, shallow teaching leads to shallow worship in music. Entertainment that takes the place of sound scriptural teaching is rampant and is helping to destroy our churches in their attempt to become more palatable to the world. As we are instructed in scripture to worship God in spirit and and truth, we cannot try to fit into the culture. We are to use both our intellect and our emotion to worship God, and not be swept away by banal words and emotive lighting and all that so many churches throw into their "worship". Raw emotion disconnected from any aspect of the truth of God isn't worship at all. It's a way to manipulate people's hearts and minds.
And music isn't an evangelistic tool as so many churches use it these days. It's for the saints (believers) to sing these songs to the glory of God. Unbelievers don't have a song to sing to the Lord. So to try to use music to get butts in the pews is nothing more than a marketing tool. Not entertainment, supposed to lure people into the church. That's why I have an issue with "Christian Rock". It's trying so hard to attract people with that style that any thinking person hearing it would say, "I don't have to go to church to hear music like that, I listen to it everyday in the world". Music should not be used to try to get unbelievers to like us.
Every age has seen it's own music styles come and go. There is a lot to be said about the difference in content in the music today, as opposed to style. Sometimes the style doesn't matter. We have many styles of music in our world, and it is more what is contained in the words that go with the music rather than the music itself.
Having said that, some music styles used for church are just wrong. That includes, imo, rock and anything else that the world uses to portray sex and drugs. You can't get people to remember the good content of a song when it's wrapped up in a vehicle that can't be separated from the worldly taint of that medium.
I have gone on and on here, and there is so much more involved with music and the church. But it's suppertime.
The main point is that worship is to be God-centred and not me-centred. Here is a chart I found that goes into some detail about what the difference is between those 2 kinds of worship. I find it pretty good.
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/godwork2.html
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostYeah, I think I've already mentioned this, but the P&WT would do songs with their eyes closed, "looking up", and (forgive the judgmental sound of this) "be spiritual", but they seemed totally oblivious to anything the congregation was doing.
In the Bible Church I visited (for more than a few Sundays) the people would largely just be "standing there" while the P&WT went through their 'performance', but every once in a while, they would sing an old hymn, and I'd look around and EVERYBODY would be singing 'with gusto'. I want to shout "HEY --- DO YOU SEE WHAT'S HAPPENING??????"
You're not LEADING if nobody is FOLLOWING - all you're doing is PERFORMING.
On the other hand, I was in another Bible Church where the P&WT seemed genuinely engaged with the audience, and it was evident that they were actually LEADING in worship, not just performing.
So....
And getting people to learn the song by repeating it over and over just adds to the repetitive nature of so many contemporary songs. If you can't give me sheet music, I can't sing it.
And it's been our experience also that when an "old" hymn is sung, most of the congregation is able to join in.
Another thing that bothered me in one church is that an elderly lady used to sit behind us. When we stood up, she couldn't see the screen, so we sat down out of consideration for her. Well, we were called on the carpet for that little apparent faux pas, told that we weren't being worshipful enough.
The whole mindset of contemporary music is faulty. There are good songs that are out there that are contemporary, as I've already said, but they aren't being sung that much in churches that like modern music because the theology is too deep. Really, look up some of the Getty's music and you will see the depth of truth in those modern songs.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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I personally dislike modern worship music but I don't get the argument that it's bad *because* the style is modern and that organ music is inherently better. Organ music was new at one point in time, too. Organs were not around at the time of Christ.
If the issue is with the lyrical content, I'm in full agreement there. However, I do note that some contemporary musicians like Sons of Korah seem to have adopted lyrics taken directly from Psalms, which I don't think anybody should object to. (They don't seem to be the majority.)
One argument that's not terrible that Patheos blogger Jonathan Aigner promotes is that the organ is specially designed to carry throughout the combination without drowning out the voice of the congregation, whereas the guitar is not. I think that's actually a decent argument for traditional worship. (He does allow that small churches that can't afford an organ are fine in using what they can afford.)Last edited by KingsGambit; 05-03-2020, 07:29 PM."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by meReally, look up some of the Getty's music and you will see the depth of truth in those modern songs.
One by Vicki Cook:
"Before the Throne of God Above"
Before the throne of God above
I have a strong and perfect plea
A great High Priest whose name is love
Who ever lives and pleads for me
My name is graven on His hands
My name is written on His heart
I know that while in heav'n He stands
No tongue can bid me thence depart
No tongue can bid me thence depart
When Satan tempts me to despair
And tells me of the guilt within
Upward I look and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin
Because the sinless Savior died
My sinful soul is counted free
For God the Just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me
To look on Him and pardon me
Behold Him there, the risen Lamb
My perfect, spotless Righteousness
The great unchangeable I AM
The King of glory and of grace
One with Himself, I cannot die
My soul is purchased by His blood
My life is hid with Christ on high
With Christ my Savior and my God
With Christ my Savior and my God"
Here are 3 by Keith and Kristyn Getty:
I love this one.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ENtL_li4GbE
"In Christ Alone"
In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
'Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live
There in the ground His body lay
Light of the World by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin's curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ
No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From life's first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
'Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I'll stand"
And:
"Creation Sings the Father's Song"
Creation sings the Father's song;
He calls the sun to wake the dawn
And run the course of day
Till evening falls in crimson rays.
His fingerprints in flakes of snow,
His breath upon this spinning globe,
He charts the eagle's flight;
Commands the newborn baby's cry.
Hallelujah! Let all creation stand and sing,
"Hallelujah!" Fill the earth with songs of worship;
Tell the wonders of creation's King.
Creation gazed upon His face;
The ageless One in time's embrace
Unveiled the Father's plan
Of reconciling God and man.
A second Adam walked the earth,
Whose blameless life would break the curse,
Whose death would set us free
To live with Him eternally.
Creation longs for His return,
When Christ shall reign upon the earth;
The bitter wars that rage
Are birth pains of a coming age.
When He renews the land and sky,
All heav'n will sing and earth reply
With one resplendent theme: The glories of our God and King!
And: This song has been a rock for me the past few years as we've gone through some stuff.
"Still, My Soul Be Still"
Still my soul be still
And do not fear
Though winds of change may rage tomorrow
God is at your side
No longer dread
The fires of unexpected sorrow
God You are my God
And I will trust in You and not be shaken
Lord of peace renew
A steadfast spirit within me
To rest in You alone
Still my soul be still
Do not be moved
By lesser lights and fleeting shadows
Hold onto His ways
With shield of faith
Against temptations flaming arrows
Still my soul be still
Do not forsake
The Truth you learned in the beginning
Wait upon the Lord
And hope will rise
As stars appear when day is dimming
Now compare these words with the ones I posted in my previous post and tell me the difference.Last edited by mossrose; 05-04-2020, 09:40 AM.
Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostHere are a couple of examples of bad "worship" music.
"I Could Sing of Your Love Forever"
Over the mountains and the sea,
Your river runs with love for me,
And I will open up my heart
And let the healer set me free.
I'm happy to be in the truth,
And I will daily lift my hands:
For I will always sing of when
Your love came down.
I could sing of your love forever,
I could sing of your love forever,
I could sing of your love forever,
I could sing of your love forever.
I could sing of your love forever.
Oh, I feel like dancing
It's foolishness I know;
But when the world has seen the light,
They will dance with joy,
Like we're dancing now.
So light on truth and heavy on repetition. Repetition, used properly, is a good tool to help us remember certain truths, but used in this way is akin to "vain repetitions" which the pagans were guilty of in Paul's time.
Another badly repetitive song with little substance:
"Good, Good Father"
I've seen many searching for answers far and wide
But I know we're all searching
For answers only you provide
'Cause you know just what we need
Before we say a word
You're a good good father
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
Because you are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways to us
You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways
You are perfect in all of your ways to us
Oh, it's love so undeniable
I, I can hardly speak
Peace so unexplainable
I, I can hardly think
As you call me deeper still
As you call me deeper still
As you call me deeper still
Into love, love, love
You're a good good father
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
You're a good good father
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
You're a good good father
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
You're a good good father
You are perfect in all of your ways
It's who you are, it's who you are, it's who you are
And I'm loved by you
You are perfect in all of your ways
It's who I am, it's who I am, it's who I am
This one could be about a human, because it doesn't even mention God or Christ:
"Draw Me Close"
Draw me close to you
Never let me go
I lay it all down again
To hear you say that I'm your friend
You are my desire
No one else will do
'Cause nothing else can take your place
To feel the warmth of your embrace
Help me find the way
Bring me back to you
You're all I want
You're all I've ever needed
You're all I want
Help me know you are near
Draw me close to you
Never let me go
I lay it all down again
To hear you say that I'm your friend
You are my desire
No one else will do
'Cause nothing else can take your place
To feel the warmth of your embrace
Help me find the way
Bring me back to you
You're all I want
You're all I've ever needed
You're all I want
Help me know you are near
You're all I want
You're all I've ever needed
You're all I want
Help me know you are near
Help me know you are near
Help me know you are near
And you know as well as I do that there are a myriad of songs that really don't belong in a church setting that people are singing because they are catchy, or repetitive and easy to remember, etc.
Look. Music is not the be all and end all of worship. More important aspects of worship are the message and the scripture and the prayer. Music is an add on, not all there is and worship doesn't stop when the music is over. The music should be memorable because it focuses on God and not on the ones singing.
It is not entertainment, it is a collective joining together to sing about God's attributes and what He has done for us and what He will do for us. There are some bad hymns from the past, I'm not denying that, but the wealth of music that is available to us that teaches sound doctrine and doesn't attempt to goad us into an emotional response is worthy of us paying attention to.
As I've already said, shallow teaching leads to shallow worship in music. Entertainment that takes the place of sound scriptural teaching is rampant and is helping to destroy our churches in their attempt to become more palatable to the world. As we are instructed in scripture to worship God in spirit and and truth, we cannot try to fit into the culture. We are to use both our intellect and our emotion to worship God, and not be swept away by banal words and emotive lighting and all that so many churches throw into their "worship". Raw emotion disconnected from any aspect of the truth of God isn't worship at all. It's a way to manipulate people's hearts and minds.
And music isn't an evangelistic tool as so many churches use it these days. It's for the saints (believers) to sing these songs to the glory of God. Unbelievers don't have a song to sing to the Lord. So to try to use music to get butts in the pews is nothing more than a marketing tool. Not entertainment, supposed to lure people into the church. That's why I have an issue with "Christian Rock". It's trying so hard to attract people with that style that any thinking person hearing it would say, "I don't have to go to church to hear music like that, I listen to it everyday in the world". Music should not be used to try to get unbelievers to like us.
Every age has seen it's own music styles come and go. There is a lot to be said about the difference in content in the music today, as opposed to style. Sometimes the style doesn't matter. We have many styles of music in our world, and it is more what is contained in the words that go with the music rather than the music itself.
Having said that, some music styles used for church are just wrong. That includes, imo, rock and anything else that the world uses to portray sex and drugs. You can't get people to remember the good content of a song when it's wrapped up in a vehicle that can't be separated from the worldly taint of that medium.
I have gone on and on here, and there is so much more involved with music and the church. But it's suppertime.
The main point is that worship is to be God-centred and not me-centred. Here is a chart I found that goes into some detail about what the difference is between those 2 kinds of worship. I find it pretty good.
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/godwork2.html
You have a personal preference, and that's fine. But you have yet to explain why church music MUST teach complex or "deep" theology, as you call it. I don't think it has to, as that's what the sermon and Bible study are for. I'm not arguing that heresy should be permitted. Far from it. But this seems to be a case of a judgmental attitude for music that isn't your preference, and you've yet to provide any sort of scriptural references for why your preferences are even better, let alone "right" as opposed to "wrong".
It's ok to have you own preferences for worship, but you're assuming your preference is better because of....well, no particular reason that I can see. Sort of like when a deacon in my old church called Christian rock music "demon music". Like...for real? They're literally singing about what God has done in their lives, but because it doesn't sound like country music it's "demon music".Last edited by myth; 05-03-2020, 08:21 PM."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostHere. I looked some up for you.
One by Vicki Cook:
"Before the Throne of God Above"
Before the throne of God above
I have a strong and perfect plea
A great High Priest whose name is love
Who ever lives and pleads for me
My name is graven on His hands
My name is written on His heart
I know that while in heav'n He stands
No tongue can bid me thence depart
No tongue can bid me thence depart
When Satan tempts me to despair
And tells me of the guilt within
Upward I look and see Him there
Who made an end of all my sin
Because the sinless Savior died
My sinful soul is counted free
For God the Just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon me
To look on Him and pardon me
Behold Him there, the risen Lamb
My perfect, spotless Righteousness
The great unchangeable I AM
The King of glory and of grace
One with Himself, I cannot die
My soul is purchased by His blood
My life is hid with Christ on high
With Christ my Savior and my God
With Christ my Savior and my God"
Here are 3 by Keith and Kristyn Getty:
I love this one.
"In Christ Alone"
In Christ alone my hope is found
He is my light, my strength, my song
This Cornerstone, this solid ground
Firm through the fiercest drought and storm
What heights of love, what depths of peace
When fears are stilled, when strivings cease
My Comforter, my All in All
Here in the love of Christ I stand
In Christ alone, who took on flesh
Fullness of God in helpless babe
This gift of love and righteousness
Scorned by the ones He came to save
'Til on that cross as Jesus died
The wrath of God was satisfied
For every sin on Him was laid
Here in the death of Christ I live
There in the ground His body lay
Light of the World by darkness slain
Then bursting forth in glorious Day
Up from the grave He rose again
And as He stands in victory
Sin's curse has lost its grip on me
For I am His and He is mine
Bought with the precious blood of Christ
No guilt in life, no fear in death
This is the power of Christ in me
From life's first cry to final breath
Jesus commands my destiny
No power of hell, no scheme of man
Can ever pluck me from His hand
'Til He returns or calls me home
Here in the power of Christ I'll stand"
And:
"Creation Sings the Father's Song"
Creation sings the Father's song;
He calls the sun to wake the dawn
And run the course of day
Till evening falls in crimson rays.
His fingerprints in flakes of snow,
His breath upon this spinning globe,
He charts the eagle's flight;
Commands the newborn baby's cry.
Hallelujah! Let all creation stand and sing,
"Hallelujah!" Fill the earth with songs of worship;
Tell the wonders of creation's King.
Creation gazed upon His face;
The ageless One in time's embrace
Unveiled the Father's plan
Of reconciling God and man.
A second Adam walked the earth,
Whose blameless life would break the curse,
Whose death would set us free
To live with Him eternally.
Creation longs for His return,
When Christ shall reign upon the earth;
The bitter wars that rage
Are birth pains of a coming age.
When He renews the land and sky,
All heav'n will sing and earth reply
With one resplendent theme: The glories of our God and King!
And: This song has been a rock for me the past few years as we've gone through some stuff.
"Still, My Soul Be Still"
Still my soul be still
And do not fear
Though winds of change may rage tomorrow
God is at your side
No longer dread
The fires of unexpected sorrow
God You are my God
And I will trust in You and not be shaken
Lord of peace renew
A steadfast spirit within me
To rest in You alone
Still my soul be still
Do not be moved
By lesser lights and fleeting shadows
Hold onto His ways
With shield of faith
Against temptations flaming arrows
Still my soul be still
Do not forsake
The Truth you learned in the beginning
Wait upon the Lord
And hope will rise
As stars appear when day is dimming
Now compare these words with the ones I posted in my previous post and tell me the difference."If you believe, take the first step, it leads to Jesus Christ. If you don't believe, take the first step all the same, for you are bidden to take it. No one wants to know about your faith or unbelief, your orders are to perform the act of obedience on the spot. Then you will find yourself in the situation where faith becomes possible and where faith exists in the true sense of the word." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship
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