Maybe Time for a Declaration of Independence

[TheWall]

I pray that those things happen CP. Also that people may come to him and see the truth.

[mossrose]

AND, I might add, it's interesting to me that this is all happening on the eve (so to speak) of the 500th* Anniversary of the Reformation, as these problematic Churches are supposedly some of the "reformed" churches.


*OK, actually 499th, but who's counting?

Take your hammer and nails and your list of stuff to nail to the church door!

[TheWall]

His thesis will say

I (CPs) real name hearby under the authority invisted in christ excercize the neccesity of church discipline by demanding the congregation deal with deadly heresies and sins perpetuated here.

[Cow Poke]

I pray that those things happen CP. Also that people may come to him and see the truth.

That's actually our main concern - not so much these false teachers - but the people who sit under their teaching having hope in a false Salvation.

[Cerebrum123]

Learning about Islam is rather messy. Some good sources I've found are answeringmuslims.com, and answering-islam.org

David Wood, and Sam Shamoun have some videos together called "Jesus or Mohammed". David Wood also has some of his own videos on Acts 17 Apologetics channel. These videos are both entertaining and informative. Although, some of the videos are not family friendly. Then again, Islam has never been "family friendly". You might also need a rather strong stomach if you're going to learn about Islam. One of Mohammed's "medicinal cures" was quite nasty.

Here are the Islamic citations they use at answeringmuslims.com

Hadith.
Quran.

Various Tafsir(which are commentaries).
Ibn Kathir
Ibn Abbas/Jalalayn

Maududi

[TheWall]

David Wood is a boss.

[JB DoulosChristou]

The past couple years studying Islam have led me to have maybe a somewhat friendlier appraisal of it than most evangelicals have.

That said, it's non-negotiable that Jesus is the only name given under heaven by which anyone can be saved; it's non-negotiable that reliance on him as risen Lord is essential to having a saving relationship with God. Islam is a permutation of the age-old human enterprise of flesh-management, not an avenue for the Spirit's power. Any 'church' that speaks of Christian discipleship as merely one path alongside other components of an 'Abrahamic trilogy,' is not a church; it is become a shrine of heresy.

[Cerebrum123]

The past couple years studying Islam have led me to have maybe a somewhat friendlier appraisal of it than most evangelicals have.

That said, it's non-negotiable that Jesus is the only name given under heaven by which anyone can be saved; it's non-negotiable that reliance on him as risen Lord is essential to having a saving relationship with God. Islam is a permutation of the age-old human enterprise of flesh-management, not an avenue for the Spirit's power. Any 'church' that speaks of Christian discipleship as merely one path alongside other components of an 'Abrahamic trilogy,' is not a church; it is become a shrine of heresy.

My research found it to be something entirely different. In fact, what you said is what I expected to find. I was horribly wrong. What I found was a demonic death cult that I believe was inspired by Satan himself. I know those are strong words, but it's the only way to describe the evil I found within the Islamic texts.

According to the Quran Allah is the greatest of deceivers, and all deception belongs to him. When the Hadith are taken into account, Jesus is effectively Allah's greatest enemy, and Satan is a savior to mankind.

Sahih Muslim 6622 Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, if you were not to commit sin, Allah would sweep you out of existence and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah, and He would have pardoned them.

You see, were it not for Satan causing people to sin, Allah would have wiped us all out. Since Allah wanted people to sin, then Jesus would have been extremely hated for His refusal to sin.

That's just a tiny taste of the theological errors and blasphemy. Then you have moral evils like the Quran allowing men to beat their wives into submission, the marriage of prepubescent girls(which Mohammed himself did with Aisha), and the explicit commands to violently subjugate all non-Muslims.

ETA: I don't want to come across as attacking you. I once thought the way you say you do. My research has led me to conclusions I never in my wildest nightmares expected.
One more thing, it's always important to distinguish between Muslims on the one hand, and Islam on the other. Muslims are people, and won't necessarily be following Islam's teaching. Islam is an ideology, and is defined by Mohammed, "Allah", and the Quran. I have a huge problem with the latter, not the former.

[JB DoulosChristou]

Cerebrum, you may be misinterpreting the words you underlined.

In speaking of Islam as a "permutation of the age-old human enterprise of flesh-management," I'm referencing the innovative analysis of religion in Peter J. Leithart's recent book Delivered from the Elements of the World. Basically all expressions of religiosity and culture, from Moloch-worship to the Old Testament, can be described as systems of "flesh management" - the OT reveals a divine system of flesh-management, while Moloch worship would be a clearly demonic system of flesh-management. (The gospel, then, is the good news that Jesus Christ, through his death and resurrection, has not merely managed flesh but abolished it, in the sense of the rearrangements of the elements of the socioreligious world, and transferred us to the domain of the Spirit instead.) So nothing I've said is incompatible with your assessment.

[Sparko]

Islam is entirely works-based and as we know no one can be good enough to earn their way to salvation.

[Cerebrum123]

Cerebrum, you may be misinterpreting the words you underlined.

In speaking of Islam as a "permutation of the age-old human enterprise of flesh-management," I'm referencing the innovative analysis of religion in Peter J. Leithart's recent book Delivered from the Elements of the World. Basically all expressions of religiosity and culture, from Moloch-worship to the Old Testament, can be described as systems of "flesh management" - the OT reveals a divine system of flesh-management, while Moloch worship would be a clearly demonic system of flesh-management. (The gospel, then, is the good news that Jesus Christ, through his death and resurrection, has not merely managed flesh but abolished it, in the sense of the rearrangements of the elements of the socioreligious world, and transferred us to the domain of the Spirit instead.) So nothing I've said is incompatible with your assessment.

Thanks for clarifying. It was that, along with your comment about a "friendlier appraisal" that made me think otherwise.

[mossrose]

Islam is entirely works-based and as we know no one can be good enough to earn their way to salvation.

And basically, it's the same as every other "religion". Based on lies from the father of lies.

[TheWall]

Islam and Mormonism have some scarily similiar stuff as well.

Both were founded by a lone prophet who gains knowledge no one else has seen and is highly likely to have been made up. Both claim the bible used to be true but was then corrupted by Paul and the like. Both claim the trinity is a lie. Both have changed doctrine at political expediancy. Both endorse polhgamy. Both endorse a works based salvation.

[rogue06]

Islam and Mormonism have some scarily similiar stuff as well.

Both were founded by a lone prophet who gains knowledge no one else has seen and is highly likely to have been made up. Both claim the bible used to be true but was then corrupted by Paul and the like. Both claim the trinity is a lie. Both have changed doctrine at political expediancy. Both endorse polhgamy. Both endorse a works based salvation.

Not just for political expediency but also to satisfy personal desires. Compare that to the accounts of the Old Testament prophets who usually lived hard lives and often had to do things that they weren't all that happy about. In contrast Joseph Smith and Mohammed claimed that God would change the rules to placate their every little whim.

[Cow Poke]

Well, I think that was a grand waste of time. The president of the association, who promised he was impartial and sided with us on the issues, did a little political dance when it appeared the uninformed majority accused one of our Pastors of being "hateful and judgmental". Our guy couldn't have been more diplomatic, and was just trying to "dialogue", like the other side claimed they wanted.

Then, one of the Pastors who advocated "multiple paths to God", made an impassioned plea about how much he loves Jesus and the community, and that Jesus died for all. (it smacked of universalism) One of his buddy pastors stood up and did a drama-queen "I am a sinner - I have sins that would make you blush, and I'm offended that you didn't include me in your characterization......" Wow.... he reminds me of some of the posters on Tweb.

When our guy, who made the opening statement, asked to clarify something later in the meeting, the president gave him a big speech about respecting his position - "I gave you 20 minutes, and I respected your right to speak, and now you're wanting to speak again, and I'm just asking you to respect my....."

Funny thing, though, one of the guys on the other side - one of our African American pastors - was allowed to speak multiple times without even waiting to be called on, and the prez never once asked him to wait, or told him "you've already had an opportunity...."

I am REALLY disappointed in the president and his leadership. I really do think he saw the momentum was on the other side, and he switched sides to be liked by them.

Still processing this.