What Is Man?

[seer]

I do know my Bible - you don't want to test me on that! I was Bible memory champ for 14 years running at our church.

"For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven." Mark 12:25

What does that have to do with whether we know each other or not? So, there is no more need of marriage or reproduction - that does mean that we won't know our loved ones.

Jesus said this to Pharisees who were trying to trick Jesus by asking him which wife a man will be married to if one of them died. So, I'm asking: If this is true, why do Christians care about who can and can't get married? Being against gay marriage seems to be foremost on the Christian mind these days.

Yes and this is our country too Norm, and we have the right to make our views known or felt through the political process. And it is not just gay marriage, but the wide spread acceptance of homosexual behavior in general. It is about our kids and grand kids being taught that this behavior is perfectly normal in school. It is about anyone who dares to object to this behavior being punished or shunned in various ways. We have documented a number of recent cases on the Civic board.

You know, I write fiction for a living. One of the most difficult things to do is keep things consistent. These stories have all the hallmarks of made up tales. It almost seems as though they are making it up as they go along - which is exactly how the fiction writing process works.

Forgive me if I don't take your word for it. There is zero evidence that the New Testament writers set out to write fiction.

You are an acolyte of a religion that maintains that it is superior to all other worldviews and all other religions. How else should I interpret your words?

Of course my worldview is superior, I wouldn't hold it if I felt otherwise. But my beliefs offers real equality for all men because all men are created in the image of God, and all men are sinners. This kind of equality is impossible in a godless universe, so is the idea of inherent human worth.

[Doug Shaver]

But my beliefs offers real equality for all men because all men are created in the image of God, and all men are sinners. This kind of equality is impossible in a godless universe, so is the idea of inherent human worth.

I can't disagree with that. Obviously, in a godless universe, there can't be any equality based on our being created in God's image.

It does not follow, though, there can't be equality. I know you say there can't, but, uh, forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

[seer]

It does not follow, though, there can't be equality. I know you say there can't, but, uh, forgive me if I don't take your word for it.

Ok, then how is a person born with Downs ontologically equal with an Einstein? Or how can inherent human worth be objectively true?

[Doug Shaver]

Ok, then how is a person born with Downs ontologically equal with an Einstein?

I have no idea, because I have no idea what "ontological equality" means.

Or how can inherent human worth be objectively true?

I don't say it is. Why do I need to?

[seer]

I have no idea, because I have no idea what "ontological equality" means.

That by nature we are all equal via being image bearers of God. So how can all men be equal in a godless universe?

[robertb]

That by nature we are all equal via being image bearers of God. So how can all men be equal in a godless universe?

In a godless universe all men are necessarily equal, in the most important sense of the word, because all men equally will cease to exist.

[seer]

In a godless universe all men are necessarily equal, in the most important sense of the word, because all men equally will cease to exist.

Really? Does that make all men equal with houseflies because all houseflies cease to exist?

[Doug Shaver]

I have no idea what "ontological equality" means.

That by nature we are all equal via being image bearers of God.

So, ontological equality as you define it is a theological concept. In that case, do I really need to explain why I consider it meaningless?

So how can all men be equal in a godless universe?

Why can't they?

I believe all men are morally equal because none of their inequalities is morally relevant. Why shouldn't I believe that? What is it about a godless universe that would preclude moral equality?

[robertb]

Really? Does that make all men equal with houseflies because all houseflies cease to exist?

Nah, houseflies don't know they are going to cease to exist.

[seer]

So, ontological equality as you define it is a theological concept. In that case, do I really need to explain why I consider it meaningless?

Nope..

I believe all men are morally equal because none of their inequalities is morally relevant. Why shouldn't I believe that? What is it about a godless universe that would preclude moral equality?

Ok, now if some one or some group didn't agree with this how do we decide who is correct?

[seer]

Nah, houseflies don't know they are going to cease to exist.

Ok, so now you added something. Ceasing to exist, and knowing that you could cease to exist. So a mentally ill person who has no real concept of death is then not equal to those of us who have a concept of death?

[Carrikature]

So, ontological equality as you define it is a theological concept. In that case, do I really need to explain why I consider it meaningless?

Don't let him fool you. He roots ontological equality in theological terms, but it doesn't have to be done that way. Ontology has to do with the nature of 'being' or 'existence'. Part of the discussion is sorting things into categories. Two things are ontologically equal if they are members of the same category. It's pretty trivial to claim that humans belong to the same category.

[seer]

Don't let him fool you. He roots ontological equality in theological terms, but it doesn't have to be done that way. Ontology has to do with the nature of 'being' or 'existence'. Part of the discussion is sorting things into categories. Two things are ontologically equal if they are members of the same category. It's pretty trivial to claim that humans belong to the same category.

Really Carrikature? How is saying that we are all human beings for instance create ontological equality? That all human beings are equal by nature? Based on what? And I'm not trying to fool anyone - that was ungracious of you.

[whag]

Well since I base my beliefs on the New Testament and the teachings of Christ I can't just make up what I want. But what is wrong with judgement and punishment? Justice is a good thing - correct?

Explain how punishing a moral Mormon or Muslim is justice. This is a very bleak view, and i'm surprised it comforts you.

[Doug Shaver]

Ontology has to do with the nature of 'being' or 'existence'. Part of the discussion is sorting things into categories. Two things are ontologically equal if they are members of the same category.

Thank you for the clarification. We discussed ontology in my metaphysics class, but we didn't get into categories or equality. The professor had other concepts he preferred to focus on.