Islam: Allah has no son

[Dan Zebiri]

Christian,

This dawagandist siam, the missionary will not agree to the incarnation, because he/she equates it with deification - which reflects siam's shallow confusion, originating from the koran.

Muslims say that the word of God descended and came down from heaven ("mother of the book") and became a recitation and a book (the koran).

If God allegedly sent his word down to become a book, THEN why can't He send His Word to the earth to become a Human Being?


Is islam and its Allah so restricted and limited that he cannot send his word to the world in any form and shape HE CHOOSES? Are muslims and muhammad prophet of islam greater than the almighty God to dictate HOW God should and should NOT send His Word into the World? That would be an ultimate blasphemy on the part of muslims.

That is not the God of the Bible and Gospel. He is all-powerful and can do as He chooses - and He chose to send His Word into the world AS A MAN - THE PERFECT MAN JESUS CHRIST.

In John 3:13, Jesus Christ declared about Himself that: "NO one has ascended into heaven, except he Who came down - descended- from Heaven - the Son of Man"!

Muslims who cannot wrap their heads around the fact of the Incarnation, is not a problem for the Christians, they wrongly accuse Christians of deification which is a flawed accusation. Christians are NOT GUILTY of the charge of deification just because muslims are forbidden to think about the Incarnation. Because muslims themselves are forced to believe by the koran that IT (the koran) also came down from heaven to become a book.

It has to become a book, you see, it cannot come down to become a man!

Sheer illogical presumption, and flawed theological presumption in the koran and islam...not to mention a hypocritical double-standard.

The miracle coming true is in your imagination.

Do you have a problem with the incarnation?

Your Allah never heard of it; otherwise, he would never had said Jesus couldn't be God because He ate food, which proves your Allah is not all-knowing.

Jesus could forgive sins, which is something only God could do.

[Dan Zebiri]

You probably ran away or are running away from the pragmatic challenge put to you here, siam!

What a sham islam is! Keep it up..

The Shema is very different from the shahadah of Islam. To compare shema and tawhid is like chalk and cheese or oil and water.

Tawhid is certainly NOT the Hebrew Shema by a long shot.

If you siam think u don't pray to a rock - the black stone in the aforetime pagan Kaabah, then I challenge you to face away or in the opposite direction from Mecca, each time you perform namaz or shalat (your compulsory prayer rituals).

That shouldn't be a problem to u, since u like and quote about the sufis so much. I have sufi friends who don't bother facing Mecca during the compulsory prayer times. They also don't pray at the 5 set times.

I also challenge u to recite the fatihah (koran chapter 1) or the chapter al-ikhlas (112) in the bathroom or while sitting on the "throne", or, any other ayat or chapter of your koran there.

If, as you claim that the koran is not venerated as something divine or even semi - worshipped, then surely, u won't mind doing the above?

After all, according to u, there is only one Allah "god" for u muslims, right?

Or, just hold your Arabic koran in your left hand and bring it to read in the toilet?

Then only are u qualified to say there is only one god in islam and veneration of the koran is unnecessary and not part of muslim orthopraxy?

Good luck siam.

[siam]

[Christian3]

The Quran is a letter/message from God to each individual human person. However, human beings have unique life experiences and levels of intellectual and spiritual knowledge. So, Tafsir (interpretation/exegesis) by knowledgeable scholars is a convenient means of accessing the Quranic message in Unity. Therefore, it is generally accepted notion that Angel Gabriel played an important part in the Quranic revelation and also in the "revelation" that is the person of Jesus Christ (pbuh).

I do not have a problem with this idea.

However, I disagree (more or less) with putting in extra wording into the Quranic translation that does not exist in the Arabic.

Also, after talking with a Jewish person about the Jewish conception of Ruach (spirit/God's breath) which has similarities to other Eastern concepts such as Prana (God's breath= sanskrit) and Chi/Ki (life-force/Spirit that animates=chinese), I think a broader understanding is possible for the Quranic concept.

Such endeavors are not unusual because knowledge is from God and as more knowledge is revealed through sciences and/or other intellectual pursuits, a richer and deeper Tafsir can be brought forth to help further our understanding of the Quranic revelation.

Explain Surah 4:157

Yusuf Ali
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

[Christian3]

but if not answered by the "One God" then who?----see, If there is no other divine power in existence except for the "One God" then obviously Only One God can answer or deny prayers.
If we affirm that there is only the "One God' in existence and no other divine power exists---then obviously any prayers that are answered (or denied) are by the only existing Divine power which is "One God".
There is simply no other force or power that can answer/deny prayers other than One God.

This One God is the creator of all humanity---we can label ourselves Christians or Muslims or Buddhists...etc...We are all human and all are created by the SAME God.

Now consider this proposition---
All humanity belongs to God because God is the creator of all humanity and humanity is dependent on God.
but---God does not belong to humanity because God is independent of humanity.

The miracle coming true is in your imagination.

Do you have a problem with the incarnation?

Your Allah never heard of it; otherwise, he would never had said Jesus couldn't be God because He ate food, which proves your Allah is not all-knowing.

Jesus could forgive sins, which is something only God could do.

[siam]

Why do so many Muslims believe it was Gabriel?

The Quran is a letter/message from God to each individual human person. However, human beings have unique life experiences and levels of intellectual and spiritual knowledge. So, Tafsir (interpretation/exegesis) by knowledgeable scholars is a convenient means of accessing the Quranic message in Unity. Therefore, it is generally accepted notion that Angel Gabriel played an important part in the Quranic revelation and also in the "revelation" that is the person of Jesus Christ (pbuh).

I do not have a problem with this idea.

However, I disagree (more or less) with putting in extra wording into the Quranic translation that does not exist in the Arabic.

Also, after talking with a Jewish person about the Jewish conception of Ruach (spirit/God's breath) which has similarities to other Eastern concepts such as Prana (God's breath= sanskrit) and Chi/Ki (life-force/Spirit that animates=chinese), I think a broader understanding is possible for the Quranic concept.

Such endeavors are not unusual because knowledge is from God and as more knowledge is revealed through sciences and/or other intellectual pursuits, a richer and deeper Tafsir can be brought forth to help further our understanding of the Quranic revelation.

[siam]

No, I don't believe your prayers were answered by a rock. I am saying people can pray to anything and believe their prayers were answered by God

but if not answered by the "One God" then who?----see, If there is no other divine power in existence except for the "One God" then obviously Only One God can answer or deny prayers.
If we affirm that there is only the "One God' in existence and no other divine power exists---then obviously any prayers that are answered (or denied) are by the only existing Divine power which is "One God".
There is simply no other force or power that can answer/deny prayers other than One God.

This One God is the creator of all humanity---we can label ourselves Christians or Muslims or Buddhists...etc...We are all human and all are created by the SAME God.

Now consider this proposition---
All humanity belongs to God because God is the creator of all humanity and humanity is dependent on God.
but---God does not belong to humanity because God is independent of humanity.

[Dan Zebiri]

The Shema is very different from the shahadah of Islam. To compare shema and tawhid is like chalk and cheese or oil and water.

Tawhid is certainly NOT the Hebrew Shema by a long shot.

If you siam think u don't pray to a rock - the black stone in the aforetime pagan Kaabah, then I challenge you to face away or in the opposite direction from Mecca, each time you perform namaz or shalat (your compulsory prayer rituals).

That shouldn't be a problem to u, since u like and quote about the sufis so much. I have sufi friends who don't bother facing Mecca during the compulsory prayer times. They also don't pray at the 5 set times.

I also challenge u to recite the fatihah (koran chapter 1) or the chapter al-ikhlas (112) in the bathroom or while sitting on the "throne", or, any other ayat or chapter of your koran there.

If, as you claim that the koran is not venerated as something divine or even semi - worshipped, then surely, u won't mind doing the above?

After all, according to u, there is only one Allah "god" for u muslims, right?

Or, just hold your Arabic koran in your left hand and bring it to read in the toilet?

Then only are u qualified to say there is only one god in islam and veneration of the koran is unnecessary and not part of muslim orthopraxy?

Good luck siam.

So, in your opinion, my prayers were answered by a rock?
If you believe so...then you have fallen into polytheism.

This is why the Shema and Tawheed are so important.

The moment you ascribe powers that should only belong to One God---to another---you have divided God.

Under Tawheed---The concept or name a person uses does not matter because only One God exists and no other power exists except for the One God. Only God can grant prayers and no other.

[Christian3]

No I do not.

verse 21:91 reads:-
And her who guarded her chastity; we breathed into her of our spirit, and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

Why do so many Muslims believe it was Gabriel?

[Christian3]

So, in your opinion, my prayers were answered by a rock?
If you believe so...then you have fallen into polytheism.

This is why the Shema and Tawheed are so important.

The moment you ascribe powers that should only belong to One God---to another---you have divided God.

Under Tawheed---The concept or name a person uses does not matter because only One God exists and no other power exists except for the One God. Only God can grant prayers and no other.

No, I don't believe your prayers were answered by a rock. I am saying people can pray to anything and believe their prayers were answered by God

[siam]

So, you agree with the following?

Surah 21:91

The Clear Quran, Dr. Mustafa Khattab And ˹remember˺ the one who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her through Our angel, ˹Gabriel,˺ making her and her son a sign for all peoples.

Abdul Hye And (remember) her (Mary) who guarded her chastity, then We breathed into her through Our spirit (Gabriel), and We made her and her son (Jesus) a sign for the worlds.

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) And [mention] the one who guarded her chastity, so We blew into her [garment] through Our angel [Gabriel], and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

Bijan Moeinian As for virgin Mary, I blew (this word is used here as a figure of speech) in her through My Spirit (Angel Gabriel) and made her and her son (Jesus) a [living] miracle of Mine for the inhabitants of the universe (terrestrials and extra-terrestrials.)

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah And she (Mary) who guarded her virginity. We breathed into her of Our spirit (Gabriel), and made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali And (remember) she who guarded her chastity (Virgin Maryam (Mary)), We breathed into (the sleeves of) her (shirt or garment) (through Our Rooh Jibrael (Gabriel)), and We made her and her son (Iesa (Jesus)) a sign for Al-Alamin (the mankind and jinns).

No I do not.

verse 21:91 reads:-
And her who guarded her chastity; we breathed into her of our spirit, and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.

[siam]

Here's the thing, siam.

I believe you THINK you are worshiping the one God, but you in fact are not. A study of the Qur'an shows that your Allah is not all-knowing (examples in this thread, and there are more) and since the Allah of the Qur'an is not all-knowing and the Creator of all is all-knowing we are not worshiping the same god.

So, in answer to your question about the miracle, a person could pray to a rock and have his prayer come true -- that does not mean his prayer to the rock was answered by the one and only God.

So, in your opinion, my prayers were answered by a rock?
If you believe so...then you have fallen into polytheism.

This is why the Shema and Tawheed are so important.

The moment you ascribe powers that should only belong to One God---to another---you have divided God.

Under Tawheed---The concept or name a person uses does not matter because only One God exists and no other power exists except for the One God. Only God can grant prayers and no other.

[Christian3]

That is the generally accepted opinion and I do not have a problem with it.....but....
My personal opinion is that the Quran is very careful in its use of words---if the Quran had meant Angel(Malak) Gabriel it would use that word (Malak (Arabic)= messenger/Malach (Hebrew)= messenger).
There is a concept in Judaism of Ruah Ha Kodesh (Holy Spirit) and in the Quran Ruh al-Qudus (Holy Spirit). The word "Ruh" itself means "Spirit" and is used in various ways in the Quran. As someone from the East, I see similarities in the Jewish/ Quranic understanding and the concept of ki/Chi (Spirit that animates/life-force).

So, you agree with the following?

Surah 21:91

The Clear Quran, Dr. Mustafa Khattab And ˹remember˺ the one who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her through Our angel, ˹Gabriel,˺ making her and her son a sign for all peoples.

Abdul Hye And (remember) her (Mary) who guarded her chastity, then We breathed into her through Our spirit (Gabriel), and We made her and her son (Jesus) a sign for the worlds.

Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) And [mention] the one who guarded her chastity, so We blew into her [garment] through Our angel [Gabriel], and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

Bijan Moeinian As for virgin Mary, I blew (this word is used here as a figure of speech) in her through My Spirit (Angel Gabriel) and made her and her son (Jesus) a [living] miracle of Mine for the inhabitants of the universe (terrestrials and extra-terrestrials.)

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah And she (Mary) who guarded her virginity. We breathed into her of Our spirit (Gabriel), and made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali And (remember) she who guarded her chastity (Virgin Maryam (Mary)), We breathed into (the sleeves of) her (shirt or garment) (through Our Rooh Jibrael (Gabriel)), and We made her and her son (Iesa (Jesus)) a sign for Al-Alamin (the mankind and jinns).

[Christian3]

Good.

So we have established that you as a Christian and I as a Muslim, agree that---a) there is only one God in existence, b) that I/Muslim worship the "One God" and that U/Christian worship the "One God"

U/Christian and I/Muslim may conceptualize God differently---but the basic presumption that we agree upon is that only One God exists and all prayers go to that One God----right?

Now suppose you as a Christian prayed to God and asked for a miracle, and I as a Muslim prayed to God and asked for a miracle---and both our wishes were granted.

Who granted these miracles?

The Muslim answer would be the "One God" granted those prayers/miracles because all prayers go to the One God and it is only God that is all-powerful. Only God's will prevails.
what is the answer from a monotheist Christian?

Here's the thing, siam.

I believe you THINK you are worshiping the one God, but you in fact are not. A study of the Qur'an shows that your Allah is not all-knowing (examples in this thread, and there are more) and since the Allah of the Qur'an is not all-knowing and the Creator of all is all-knowing we are not worshiping the same god.

So, in answer to your question about the miracle, a person could pray to a rock and have his prayer come true -- that does not mean his prayer to the rock was answered by the one and only God.

[Dan Zebiri]

In blind and wild denial again, siam. This time for all the world to see 😂.

Like I already exposed, the koran does NOT espouse or teach pure monotheism like you like to wildly preach and propagate.

The violent and turpid differences between the many various Islamic factions from the start of islam until now, was NOT mono-thematic. It was not just about politics & who wielded political power & control over others "for Allah".

There were many multiple strands in the intra-muslim struggles and disunity among them proves that islam was never a blessing to mankind - as it claims for dakwah purposes.

One big strand was the destruction by fire of the koran followed by the man-made standardization & republication of the koran, under Uthman b. Affan's unilateral instructions by force.

Another strand of disunity in islam is the EARLY theological fights between muslim scholars and muslims themselves. This involved the divine nature of the koran in relation to the Muslim god and his nature.

By declaring the koran and the mother of the koran "eternal and uncreated", surah 13/39, 85/22 and many such koran ayats/verses confirm confusion and contradiction about Allah's true nature. No consensus about his alleged "monotheism". If he is "eternal AND uncreated", then so is the ummul kitab / mother of the book and the tablets sitting next to Allah or, under his throne - further blurry koranic confusion here, and muslim scholars are equally confused about this.

The muslim rationalists and shia scholars reject the quranic claim of the eternal AND uncreated trait of the tablets & mother of the book. So God was without his words at a point in time. He was both dumb AND mute.

Just look up the fierce islamic theological arguments, quarrels, fights and violence among muslims and scholars over the centuries, you will get a real sense of non - consensus, alienation, antagonism and deep divided disunity between orthodox and the thinking scholars between what is eternal, uncreated and divine in islam.

Showing there is really no clarity about "monotheism" at all in the koran. Leading to these theological breaches present in islam from the beginning until today.

You say that the Trinity is hard to understand. The ulama and muslim scholars themselves could not understand the nature of the eternal and uncreated.

There is much more that is confused, unintelligible and irrational in islam compared to Christianity.
Muslim scholars both orthodox and otherwise, have a simple escape from this irresponsible and reckless attitude for islam.. just blabber the Sunni magic mantra to wish away these orthodox conundrum & contradictions - just blab "walahualam" - "god knows best", and stop bugging them with these pesky, inconvenient questions!

There are just no good or sensible answers for these koranic theological contradictions that any thinker can give. Just follow all that with blind & thoughtless FAITH..

Yes, that is why many Muslims are abandoning and leaving islam over the last 25 - 30 years in large numbers. They who quit islam are not your common person, but thinking and rational muslims who are using their minds without fear or favor.

Thats why I will never convert to such a ludicrous and intellectually confused and confusing religion like islam and it's illogical book the Koran.

This is incorrect.
Though the debate about the ceatedness/uncreatedness (tablet) did occur, and did turn voilent---the voilence was for political reasons not doctrinal and the actual scholarly debate ended in stalemate and petered out because regardless of the status of the tablet---Muslims worship One God only and no other---so the issue had no relevance to the average Muslim person.