Is Islam Inherently Violent?

[Abu Njoroge]

Islam meens submit or surrender to God.To me I see some Islamic countries are living in the past.There times in history that Jews and Christian's killed others for heresy.Muslims believe a lot of things that were common place in the old testament.stoning among other things.To me true Islam is addherance to the Great commandment and the first commandment.like the Jewish faith Muslims believe one needs no go between to pray are speek with God.You shall have no God but the Lord your God.Allah is One.El is One.YHVH is One.Same God different understanding.

[rogue06]

Yeah, I don't think many people are aware of Luther's anti-Semitic writings; that's something of a mitigating factor.

Many in my family are Lutheran and few were aware of it and those who were only had a vague understanding that he was anti-Semitic and no idea how much so.

[One Bad Pig]

I think it's a shame that a man who called for Jews' houses to be burned is uncritically considered a hero by many Protestants. Though I honestly think that most laymen just don't know about that.

Yeah, I don't think many people are aware of Luther's anti-Semitic writings; that's something of a mitigating factor.

I also think it's a shame that he tore apart the Roman Catholic Church. While I agree with his questions regarding indulgences, he could've handled things in a rather more diplomatic manner (of course, the same could be said about the split between East and West in 1054).

[KingsGambit]

Just noting your uncritical use of sources, is all. Luther is, um, not normative for Christianity in general. He's not even normative for Protestants.

I think it's a shame that a man who called for Jews' houses to be burned is uncritically considered a hero by many Protestants. Though I honestly think that most laymen just don't know about that.

(Incidentally, I dismissed all Christian anti-Semitism as stupid based on the idea that Jesus was Jewish on a college paper that was given an A by my openly Jewish professor )

[One Bad Pig]

Wikipedia is indeed accurate in this case. Any other source would read the same.

A month old thread is not that old.

Just noting your uncritical use of sources, is all. Luther is, um, not normative for Christianity in general. He's not even normative for Protestants.

[rogue06]

More white wash. There are citation by Paul tha Martin Luther based his view on, and no it was not contrary to the text of the NT.

Not. Even. Close.

[Cerebrum123]

More white wash. There are citation by Paul tha Martin Luther based his view on, and no it was not contrary to the text of the NT.

You clearly don't understand the NT then. Not surprising given your other myriad of misunderstandings.

[shunyadragon]

You bumped a month-old thread to cite Wikipedia?

Wikipedia is indeed accurate in this case. Any other source would read the same.

A month old thread is not that old.

[shunyadragon]

The point is that to engage in such behavior one has to behave in a manner diametrically opposed to what Christ repeatedly taught, whereas this is not the case with Islam. Muhammad repeatedly advocated violence to force conversions.

More white wash. There are citation by Paul tha Martin Luther based his view on, and no it was not contrary to the text of the NT.

[One Bad Pig]

Whitewash!! Indeed in history Christianity did teach violence against others in particular Jews.


For example: [cite=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies]

On the Jews and Their Lies

You bumped a month-old thread to cite Wikipedia?

[rogue06]

Whitewash!! Indeed in history Christianity did teach violence against others in particular Jews.


For example: [cite=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies]

On the Jews and Their Lies

The point is that to engage in such behavior one has to behave in a manner diametrically opposed to what Christ repeatedly taught, whereas this is not the case with Islam. Muhammad repeatedly advocated violence to force conversions.

[shunyadragon]

The difference is that Christianity does not teach violence and Islam does.

Whitewash!! Indeed in history Christianity did teach violence against others in particular Jews.


For example: [cite=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies]

On the Jews and Their Lies

[rogue06]

Surah Al-Anfal [8:12]

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

Or more clearly stated in the Shakir translation (same source)

When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

And there is also Surah Muhammad [47:4]

So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them

This time the Muhammad Sarwar translation is clearer

If you encounter the disbelievers in a battle, strike-off their heads.

Sīratu Rasūli l-Lāh ("Life of the Messenger of God")

The apostle went out to the market of Medina (which is still its market today) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for [the men of Banu Qurayza] and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches.

Al-Tabarani, widely considered the most important hadith scholar of the 10th century states that between 600 to 900 were executed.

So Mohammad himself over saw mass decapitations and puts the lie to the explanation sometimes offered of the quranic verses that it was only a reference to fighting in battle since what happened to the Jews was after they had surrendered.

And a couple decades after Muhammad's death, when various factions started fighting (resulting in the Sunni-Shiite split), Muhammad's favorite grandson, Husayn ibn Ali, had his head chopped off after the battle of Karbala^[1] in central Iraq (along with most of his family and companions, including Husayn's six month old son), at the behest of the caliph Yazid I. The head of Husayn and the 71 others also decapitated were first sent to Allah ibn Ziyad the Governor of Basra and Kufa at the latter location and subsequently Husayn's was placed upon a silver platter and sent to Yazid in Damascus, and finally sent to Cairo for inspection by the Governor of Egypt.

Nope. No tradition of decapitations in Muslim tradition.

And it is one that has continued into modern times and not just by terrorist groups. In 1992, the Iranian government sent a "specialist" to assassinate Shapour Bakhtiar, the shah's last prime minister, in Suresnes, a suburb of Paris. While most news reports simply state that he was killed with kitchen knives, he was decapitated with them. When the news broke, Hashemi Rafsanjani, then president of the Islamic Republic, publicly thanked Allah for having allowed "the severing of the head of the snake."









1. Shiite Muslims commemorate the battle during a 10-day period of mourning often marked by such things as self-flagellation

[rogue06]

But can they be demonstrated to be the same Muslims in both cases?

Look at the example in post #26 (forgot to mention that was from the Muslim Brotherhood):

Another example could be seen a couple years ago on the websites put up in English as compared to the one for Arabic with completely different messages. In the former it was all about "peace" and "freedom" with a picture of a young girl in a white hijab whereas on the site in Arabic, the one for their fellow Muslims, this was nowhere to be seen but instead featured crossed swords with the words "Make Ready" underneath. "Make ready" is a reference to Surah Al-Anfal [8:60]:

Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly.

Give the gullible infidels a message of peace and freedom while telling your fellow Muslims to prepare for battle against them.

Another one was when of the supporters of the "Ground Zero Mosque" went to Egypt he delivered a speech where he mocked his and other's claims that it would be a symbol of religious unity and cooperation pretty much saying it was amazing that the idiot infidels had fallen for that line (I posted about this in a pre-crash thread and am looking for the info again).

[Terraceth]

I suggest you look into what the Muslims say to each other and what they teach as opposed to the message that they present to non-Muslims. Over the years the Israelis have done a splendid job translating radio and TV broadcasts that they picked up that were meant for internal consumption. The differences between them and the messages provided to outsiders are stark and unsettling.

But can they be demonstrated to be the same Muslims in both cases?