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What constitutes a Christian denomination?
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Maybe someone should move this whole "30 000 different denomination"-discussion to a thread of its own? It's strayed quite a bit from the original topic of this thread, IMO.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostWhere? I noted that two were cults, and two more might be considered so. You haven't given anything except a side-track about what qualifies as a denomination.
Ok, so you think those are cults too. That's 7. Any others?
Well, yes. That was the point. I did it from memory, as rogue requested. I see no reason not to. Are you retracting your claim?
P.S. It is telling that you claimed I was the one lacking in knowledge of religion, yet you are the one who is having to resort to internet searching.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostYes, you did say that. Then I asked you to identify the many cults among hose I listed. You haven't done so, and I don't think you can. Instead, you're trying to muddy the waters regarding the definition of 'denomination'.Already identified a few, but since you want to play games, let me do it again:
Jehovah Witnesses - are the watchtower publications scripture?
Mormons - is the Book of Mormon God's 'last testament' to humanity about how Jesus came to America after he was finished in Asia? Is there a living prophet on earth still that directly hears from God?
Christian Scientist - does Christ teach that the physical world is a delusion?
Unitarians - they reject the divinity of Christ.
I think you just threw together a 'list' and didn't bother to make sure your list was even accurate, before you decided to say something.4 groups named or are you going to try to make me stick to the strictest definition of 'many'?
Roy
P.S. It is telling that you claimed I was the one lacking in knowledge of religion, yet you are the one who is having to resort to internet searching.
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Originally posted by Roy View PostWhat criteria do you use for who is a true Christian? And why should that take preference over theirs?
Roy
Why should it take preference over the criteria of unorthodox groups? It's quite simple really, us orthodox people got first dibs on the term Christians and these unorthodox people came later and tried to wrongfully steal the term for themselves.
*I mean, someone who believes that the Son is not begotten from the Father, but still believes that He is co-eternal and one with the Father would be wrong about the "not begotten"-part, but they wouldn't be wrong enough for me to call their salvation in to question.
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Originally posted by Roy View Post1) No, 2) some, 3) yes. Have you?
Please do. Preeferrably starting with the "many" cults on my list.So what?
Do you not think there can be denominations within denominations?
a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian Church.
So how could the Franciscans be a 'denomination', when they are not an autonomous branch of the Christian church? Do you even know what a denomination is and isn't? A denomination has nothing to do with theology and two church's could be theological identical, but be counted as separate denominations, just because they operate autonomous from each other.
You are wrong. Wrong about my source, anyway - if you actually did know how to use the internet you could easily have checked whether there is such a list.
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostSo have you read the theology of Christian scientist, Jehovah's Witnesses, or Mormons?
I wasn't aware that Jesus taught the physical world was a delusion or that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. This is just a few problems with your definition above. Do you want me to carry on?Perhaps because the Franciscans are official affiliated with the Roman Catholic Church and submit to it and the pope's authority?I think you just found a list online and are really hoping that the rest of us do not know how to use the internet to quickly look up information on your list.
Roy
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Originally posted by Roy View PostYes, you did say that. Then I asked you to identify the many cults among hose I listed. You haven't done so, and I don't think you can. Instead, you're trying to muddy the waters regarding the definition of 'denomination'.
If you can identify the "Cult groups", do so.
Jehovah Witnesses - are the watchtower publications scripture?
Mormons - is the Book of Mormon God's 'last testament' to humanity about how Jesus came to America after he was finished in Asia? Is there a living prophet on earth still that directly hears from God?
Christian Scientist - does Christ teach that the physical world is a delusion?
Unitarians - they reject the divinity of Christ.
I think you just threw together a 'list' and didn't bother to make sure your list was even accurate, before you decided to say something. Besides, that isn't even getting into how many on your 'list' are orders that submit to the authority of church bodies and are counted being officially part of that church body (sort of like how you are trying to say that US states would be their own countries because they all have their own government and just flat ignoring that they all submit to the US federal government).
If you can't, admit you were wrong.
Irony at its finest.
If you don't do either, I have no interest in further conversation with you.
No, I did it from memory, as rogue suggested.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostAll of them deny the teaching of the Trinity, the Mormons add their own scripture to the mix (and Jehovah's witnesses tend to treat the Watchtower publications as if they were scripture) and and Unitarians deny the deity of Christ, while Jehovah's witnesses think Jesus was a created being. And when these groups call Jesus the son of God they mean something categorically different than what orthodox Christians mean by the term.
What criteria do you use for who is a true Christian? And why should that take preference over theirs?
Roy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostHere is what I said:
Many of those are cult groups.
If you can identify the "Cult groups", do so.
If you can't, admit you were wrong.
If you don't do either, I have no interest in further conversation with you.So did you just find a list online and are hoping that Rogue, CP, and myself are too stupid to use the internet?
Roy
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Originally posted by Roy View PostChristian: someone who takes the NT as scripture and either accepts Jesus as the son of God or follows his teachings.
Denomination: a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity.Perhaps you could elaborate on why the Franciscans, for example, do not qualify as a denomination? They have a name, an identity, and traditions in addition to those of mainstream Catholicism.Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-22-2015, 09:49 AM.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostAll of them deny the teaching of the Trinity, the Mormons add their own scripture to the mix (and Jehovah's witnesses tend to treat the Watchtower publications as if they were scripture) and and Unitarians deny the deity of Christ, while Jehovah's witnesses think Jesus was a created being. And when these groups call Jesus the son of God they mean something categorically different than what orthodox Christians mean by the term.
opportunity - would be well aware of all of this. Wonders never cease.
Jorge
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Originally posted by Roy View PostThey accept the NT as scripture, follow the teachings of Jesus and believe he was the son of God. How are they not Christian?
Roy
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Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View PostIf somebody is going to name off 'Christian Groups' (IE groups because many on the list are also not denominations, but groups), they might want to first define who they are calling 'Christian' and what they are defining as a 'denomination' because The Knight's Templar are about as much of a 'denomination' as the Masons are.
Denomination: a subgroup within a religion that operates under a common name, tradition, and identity.Only people who don't understand the difference between orders and denominations, would say things like that.
Roy
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Originally posted by Roy View PostReally? Which ones are cults? I'll grant you the Branch Davidians and Westboro Baptists are cults, but that's only two, not many. Even if you include the Albigensians and Jehovah's witnesses, it's still not many.
So which ones are cults? Or is it your own knowledge of religion that is lacking? I'd be extremely surprised if you even recognised all the names, let alone knew anything about them.
Many of those are cult groups.
Why is it that some atheist knock Jorge for making stupid mistakes of reading and fact, when they go on to make stupid mistakes of reading and fact? I actually know pretty much every group of listed and I would love to see you try to prove that some of those groups you listed as separate denominations and see you prove it. Just to name a few examples of groups you count as 'denomination'... you say:
Order of St Stephen
Yet, what I could find about them is stuff like this:
"All members must be Roman Catholic, although exceptions are made for Heads of State and members of royal families who are members of the other Christian denominations."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Saint_Stephen
Or another entry of yours:
Franciscians
Yet I find:
"Franciscans are people and groups (religious orders) who adhere to the teachings and spiritual disciplines of Saint Francis of Assisi. The term is usually applied to members who also adhere to the Roman Catholic Church. However, other denominations also have members who describe themselves as Franciscans. They include Old Catholic, Anglican, and Lutheran."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franciscan
Yet another one:
Knights Templar
Yet again:
"Officially endorsed by the Roman Catholic Church around 1129, the Order became a favoured charity throughout Christendom and grew rapidly in membership and power. Templar knights, in their distinctive white mantles with a red cross, were among the most skilled fighting units of the Crusades.Non-combatant members of the Order managed a large economic infrastructure throughout Christendom, innovating financial techniques that were an early form of banking, and building fortifications across Europe and the Holy Land."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar
So did you just find a list online and are hoping that Rogue, CP, and myself are too stupid to use the internet? Your 'list' seems to be shrinking when you start actually looking at in, in depth, and find out that you are so loosely defining 'denomination' that almost any group could count as a separate denomination (even if it is/was official endorsed and affiliated with another denomination on your 'list').
Not that it really matters whether they're cults or not, they're still Christian denominations - and one person's cult is another person's religion.Last edited by lilpixieofterror; 02-22-2015, 09:39 AM.
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Originally posted by Chrawnus View PostI would hardly call Mormons, Unitarians or Jehovah's witnesses Christian denominations. And I have a hard time believing any orthodox denomination would accept them as such either.
Roy
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