Opinions on Billy Graham

[carpedm9587]

I agree. I do however think that bringing the disconnects like this to the fore can help the discussion to be more fruitful. If neither side can see a certain disconnect, then you just end up talking past each other.

About the underlined bit, he does seem a bit like a non-theistic version of robrecht if you ask me.

I'm guessing you don't mean THIS robrecht? Who is robrecht?


(I do agree with your observation about disconnects, however. I had not considered this issue from the perspective of "everyone's a sinner." When someone has that dismal a view of human nature, things like the Graham Rule would obviously make perfect sense. They don't when your view of human nature is less dark. Until you brought that up, I had not even considered it).

[carpedm9587]

It makes a whole world of difference. Again, you're entitled to be wrong -- even woefully.

You too!

[carpedm9587]

You honestly need to stop telling people you're going to stop talking about a subject. You never follow through with it, so it comes off as though what you really mean is that you want the conversation to be done with, and that you want your word to be the last word, and that you only say that you'll give others the last word if their last word isn't stronger than your argument.

Actually - I do follow through with it - about 60% of the time.

[carpedm9587]

The "just makes everyone look bad" was more of a general statement about how a "sinful nature" makes everyone seem, rather than a comment on rejection of this particular rule/topic.

I probably didn't make that clear. I try to be clear in my posts, but I often fail.

Unlike me - who am prefectly clear with all uddered wurds!

[Adrift]

I'm to the point where, if I wasn't a Christian, I'd probably be a straight-up nihilist and a misanthrope. (I might be those things anyway)

People suck. The varieties of our screwed-up-ness are never-ending.

Oh, I have hope in humanity, and I'm certainly no pessimist (though I might choose nihilism for other reasons), but pretending that life is all unicorns and rainbows isn't living in reality. Realizing that people are flawed means that it's wise to have accountability. Demonstrating that you have respect for others, and that you can be held accountable is about as far away from objectification as you can get. It takes some pretty perverse thinking to get out of this rule some semblance of objectification. I mean, who thinks like that? It's so weird.

[Adrift]

I agree. I do however think that bringing the disconnects like this to the fore can help the discussion to be more fruitful. If neither side can see a certain disconnect, then you just end up talking past each other.

About the underlined bit, he does seem a bit like a non-theistic version of robrecht if you ask me.

For as irritating as he could be, I found robrecht far more...I don't know...rational? And maybe emotionless? I hate to say it, but carpe is not the person I remember him being 10 years ago. At all. But I'm certain the same could be said of me.

[Zymologist]

You may be right, but it's living in complete denial of how the world operates in real life every day. You only just need to be alive to know that people aren't perfect, that some people are going to take advantage of situations that they shouldn't, or that some people are going to confuse agape and philia with eros. Reading his replies I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I'm to the point where, if I wasn't a Christian, I'd probably be a straight-up nihilist and a misanthrope. (I might be those things anyway)

People suck. The varieties of our screwed-up-ness are never-ending.

[Cerebrum123]

You may be right, but it's living in complete denial of how the world operates in real life every day. You only just need to be alive to know that people aren't perfect, that some people are going to take advantage of situations that they shouldn't, or that some people are going to confuse agape and philia with eros. Reading his replies I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

I agree. I do however think that bringing the disconnects like this to the fore can help the discussion to be more fruitful. If neither side can see a certain disconnect, then you just end up talking past each other.

About the underlined bit, he does seem a bit like a non-theistic version of robrecht if you ask me.

[Cow Poke]

I did not talk smack about your marriage, CP. Frankly, when I wrote, I had missed the "part of why" and was responding mostly in terms of this being a major cause of 42 years. I would consider any marriage for which that is true to be very dysfunctional. The "part of" makes a difference...a little.

It makes a whole world of difference. Again, you're entitled to be wrong -- even woefully.

[Adrift]

And yes, I broke my "last word" (again), because I was concerned that you thought my comment was about your marriage. It's about the rule, and it's impact on people.

You honestly need to stop telling people you're going to stop talking about a subject. You never follow through with it, so it comes off as though what you really mean is that you want the conversation to be done with, and that you want your word to be the last word, and that you only say that you'll give others the last word if their last word isn't stronger than your argument.

[Cerebrum123]

OK - so much for "shutting up"

Yes - I think that is a marvelous insight. I do not accept the "sinful nature" theme of Christianity. So my perspective on this is going to be necessarily different. And it's not just about "looking bad." It's about objectification - treating other people like objects.

The "just makes everyone look bad" was more of a general statement about how a "sinful nature" makes everyone seem, rather than a comment on rejection of this particular rule/topic.

I probably didn't make that clear. I try to be clear in my posts, but I often fail.

[Adrift]

He rejects the underlined, and anything remotely like it. I think that is the root of the issue. In a world where people are sinful by nature, it just makes sense. In one where something like sin simply doesn't exist, it just makes everyone look bad. Since he's looking at things through the latter lens, it just makes everyone look bad.

You may be right, but it's living in complete denial of how the world operates in real life every day. You only just need to be alive to know that people aren't perfect, that some people are going to take advantage of situations that they shouldn't, or that some people are going to confuse agape and philia with eros. Reading his replies I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

[carpedm9587]

He rejects the underlined, and anything remotely like it. I think that is the root of the issue. In a world where people are sinful by nature, it just makes sense. In one where something like sin simply doesn't exist, it just makes everyone look bad. Since he's looking at things through the latter lens, it just makes everyone look bad.

OK - so much for "shutting up"

Yes - I think that is a marvelous insight. I do not accept the "sinful nature" theme of Christianity. So my perspective on this is going to be necessarily different. And it's not just about "looking bad." It's about objectification - treating other people like objects.

[carpedm9587]

Please don't dishonor my wife by perverting what I said about her, or my marriage to her....

I did not talk smack about your marriage, CP. Frankly, when I wrote, I had missed the "part of why" and was responding mostly in terms of this being a major cause of 42 years. I would consider any marriage for which that is true to be very dysfunctional. The "part of" makes a difference...a little.

That's what I said. I won't talk smack about your marriage, and you do likewise about mine.

CP, if I tell you that my wife and I regularly swap partners with our neighbors, would you praise me - keep silent - and make it clear that you did not find that kind of behavior moral or acceptable? I find this rule very disagreeable (I deleted "repulsive."). I think it objectifies people and shows an incredible degree of distrust. I don't care what role I am in, if my wife were ever to suggest that I should be sure to have someone else with me if I am ever in the presence of another woman or man, I would politely tell her she may have married the wrong man. I would never do that to others, just to protect myself or even just to make her comfortable. The entire thing breaches trust six ways to Sunday, IMO.

And yes, I broke my "last word" (again), because I was concerned that you thought my comment was about your marriage. It's about the rule, and it's impact on people.

[Cow Poke]

I cannot possibly see how.

1 Thessalonians 5:22 (KJV)

22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.