Originally posted by Bill the Cat
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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.
Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.
Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.
Forum Rules: Here
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Questions for Arminianism.
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Simple definition: The Elect is the people who is or will be in Heaven--forever. If after Judgment Day, one is still apostate, he should never be counted as of the Elect, no matter he ever was a believer. One more point: I don't think anyone should ever presume to know any given person is or is not of the elect.
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These were just people who were following the Apostles around who never actually believed. It was not believers that left the faith.
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Originally posted by theophilus View PostNo genuine Christian can become an apostate.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
(1 John 2:19 ESV)
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostThe concept of being saved and then lost, to me, is a non sequitur. [It] makes Christianity effectively no different than non-Christian faiths. (emphasis in original; slightly edited)
Notes1. Whether human freedom is conceived in terms of natural ability or restored by divine grace is a moot point.
2. I.e. defection from Christ, defection from the faith.Last edited by The Remonstrant; 12-18-2015, 01:46 AM.
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostLove this verse. And I always find it curious when people (pretty much everyone) doesn't notice this part:
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
or as another translation puts it:
but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven
and
you workers of lawlessness.
In other words, the idea of apostasy is nowhere in here.
Rather, it is regarding those who on the day of judgment will claim to know Christ and claim to testify it by their 'works' (and those of power).
Of course, I find it interesting that Jesus basically says that their works were works of lawlessness, or iniquity -- not works of righteousness. They clearly did not do 'the will of the Father'.
So there is a juxtaposition here of those who say 'Lord, lord' (clearly empty words), and those who live a life of faith in Christ (those that do the will of the Father).
Works of lawlessness is the state of all mankind without God's intervening grace.
". . . Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. . . ." -- Galatians 5:19-21.
". . . Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. . . . " -- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.
". . . For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. . . ." -- Ephesians 5:5-6.
". . . But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. . . ." -- Revelation 21:8.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostConsider Jesus' words,
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
or as another translation puts it:
but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven
and
you workers of lawlessness.
In other words, the idea of apostasy is nowhere in here.
Rather, it is regarding those who on the day of judgment will claim to know Christ and claim to testify it by their 'works' (and those of power).
Of course, I find it interesting that Jesus basically says that their works were works of lawlessness, or iniquity -- not works of righteousness. They clearly did not do 'the will of the Father'.
So there is a juxtaposition here of those who say 'Lord, lord' (clearly empty words), and those who live a life of faith in Christ (those that do the will of the Father).Last edited by phat8594; 11-05-2015, 05:20 PM.
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Originally posted by theophilus View PostApostasy is possible but an apostate is not a believer who turns from the truth but someone who professed to be a believer but was not really saved. Those who profess Christ are warned to make sure they really are saved.
We must guard against becoming apostates by making sure our salvation is real. Because there is a lot of false teaching concerning salvation it is possible for a person to make a profession of faith, join a church, and believe that he is a Christian when in fact he is not. There was a time when I was in that situation. I believed that the way to be saved was to be baptized in water and live a life of good works. During this time I could have become an apostate by turning from what I knew of the truth. I am thankful that that didn't happen but instead God allowed me to hear and understand the gospel and become a real believer. I have been reborn spiritually and received the gift of eternal life. My salvation is entirely a work of God and when he starts something he finishes it.
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Philippians 1:6 ESV)
To be an apostate, would assume you were a legitimate believer before 'leaving'.
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Originally posted by 37818 View PostConsider Jesus' words,
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Leave a comment:
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Consider Jesus' words,
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Leave a comment:
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Originally posted by theophilus View PostApostasy is possible but an apostate is not a believer who turns from the truth but someone who professed to be a believer but was not really saved.
Those who profess Christ are warned to make sure they really are saved.
We must guard against becoming apostates by making sure our salvation is real. Because there is a lot of false teaching concerning salvation it is possible for a person to make a profession of faith, join a church, and believe that he is a Christian when in fact he is not.
There was a time when I was in that situation. I believed that the way to be saved was to be baptized in water and live a life of good works. During this time I could have become an apostate by turning from what I knew of the truth.
I am thankful that that didn't happen but instead God allowed me to hear and understand the gospel and become a real believer. I have been reborn spiritually and received the gift of eternal life. My salvation is entirely a work of God and when he starts something he finishes it.
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Philippians 1:6 ESV)
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Originally posted by phat8594 View PostI have always found it interesting to ponder that:
1. If apostasy is not possible.
2. And Paul warns of apostasy.
Then what use if the warning?
IOW, if apostasy isn't possible, then the warnings against apostasy seem to be useless as they would be describing an impossible hypothetical. And warnings of an impossible hypothetical seem a little absurd, if not useless in nature...
We must guard against becoming apostates by making sure our salvation is real. Because there is a lot of false teaching concerning salvation it is possible for a person to make a profession of faith, join a church, and believe that he is a Christian when in fact he is not. There was a time when I was in that situation. I believed that the way to be saved was to be baptized in water and live a life of good works. During this time I could have become an apostate by turning from what I knew of the truth. I am thankful that that didn't happen but instead God allowed me to hear and understand the gospel and become a real believer. I have been reborn spiritually and received the gift of eternal life. My salvation is entirely a work of God and when he starts something he finishes it.
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Philippians 1:6 ESV)
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostThis has nothing to do with those who are Christians. It refers to those who were near the Apostles but never converted, and they left the Apostles because they were not disciples. John says if they were disciples, they would have remained with the Apostles. This was a very particular situation about avoiding the wolves in sheep's clothing, not people who fall away.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostAbsolutely false. Hebrews is quite clear that apostasy is a real threat to believers, and the consequences are eternal damnation with no hope of repentance.
1. If apostasy is not possible.
2. And Paul warns of apostasy.
Then what use if the warning?
IOW, if apostasy isn't possible, then the warnings against apostasy seem to be useless as they would be describing an impossible hypothetical. And warnings of an impossible hypothetical seem a little absurd, if not useless in nature...
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Originally posted by theophilus View PostNo genuine Christian can become an apostate.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
(1 John 2:19 ESV)
It's an easy mistake, to be sure, and ultimately this is the type of misunderstanding that can be had by reading scripture through an 'apologetic hermeneutic' (i.e. trying to prove a point / particular theology)
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