God's Desires

[lee_merrill]

Sodom was a city made up of individuals, which will be restored!

uh no.

Well, what part of this do you disagree with?

And none of them came back out. That's kind of what "for ever and ever" means.

And Sodom is an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. (Jude 7)

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

Sodom was a city made up of individuals, which will be restored!

uh no.

Yes, people are cast into hell, into the lake of fire.

Blessings,
Lee

And none of them came back out. That's kind of what "for ever and ever" means.

[lee_merrill]

If Calvinism leads to universalistic musings, I would highly recommend Arminianism in its stead.

Thanks for the recommendation, but I am convinced of my Calvinism. As I am convinced that "God's desires are not frustrated" (getting back to the topic of the thread).

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

You are quoting verses that have nothing to do with hell or heaven or individuals.

Sodom was a city made up of individuals, which will be restored!

In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the Rich Man was clearly repentant, and begged Abraham to warn his family. Yet he wasn't let out. I can't find any verse that says you can be let out of hell or that there will be a second judgment to let you free.

He doesn't seem repentant, actually, he doesn't express sorrow to Lazarus for his mistreatment, for instance.

In fact, Hebrews 9 says 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

Yes, people are cast into hell, into the lake of fire.

Blessings,
Lee

[The Remonstrant]

If Calvinism leads to universalistic musings, I would highly recommend Arminianism in its stead.

[Sparko]

And nations and cities are made out of people, in this case, people who "serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 7)


How have I been out of context, though? And the verses offered do not show that people freely choose--and you need to respond to my point that the analogies of salvation are passive on our part.

Blessings,
Lee

You are quoting verses that have nothing to do with hell or heaven or individuals.

Again, where has the bible shown any person who is in hell getting out?


In the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, the Rich Man was clearly repentant, and begged Abraham to warn his family. Yet he wasn't let out. I can't find any verse that says you can be let out of hell or that there will be a second judgment to let you free.

In fact, Hebrews 9 says 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

[lee_merrill]

Restoring captivity is repentance after death? I don't think so Lee. And it is talking about nations and cities, not people in hell.

And nations and cities are made out of people, in this case, people who "serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 7)

You keep stretching for esoteric, out of context verses to support your view while demanding literal verses from us (which we have provided) and then ignoring them.

How have I been out of context, though? And the verses offered do not show that people freely choose--and you need to respond to my point that the analogies of salvation are passive on our part.

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

Restoring captivity is repentance after death? I don't think so Lee. And it is talking about nations and cities, not people in hell.

You keep stretching for esoteric, out of context verses to support your view while demanding literal verses from us (which we have provided) and then ignoring them.

[lee_merrill]

Can you show me one person who repented after death and was let into heaven in the bible?

[Sparko]

Yet I believe people can repent after death.

Can you show me one person who repented after death and was let into heaven in the bible?

[lee_merrill]

If God chooses who he is sending to hell, then not everyone is being saved like you believe.

Yet I believe people can repent after death.

And if everyone is being saved, then why bother preaching the gospel?

Calvinists get such a question a lot! God uses the means of preaching to bring people into his kingdom, God's command to repent is often given through people. Then God's command fulfills its purpose, and people whom God has called do repent.

Blessings,
Lee

[lee_merrill]

Where does it say Trinity in the Bible? Just because the words are there doesn't negate the meaning of the text.

Yet the meaning is that God has to give grace to hear and repent:

"Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear." (Dt. 29:4)

I think your interpretation has some problems then, because it's clear in the O.T. that Israel again and again didn't choose life but chose to follow after other gods, so, God's command did not accomplish it's purpose.

So is this statement false?

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding in the matter for which I sent it." (Isa. 55:10-11)

So I believe hat all may repent when God commands it, that all may choose life, even after death. Then God's desires are not frustrated.

Ummm...you interpret the analogies to be passive, that doesn't make it so.

Being born is passive, coming from death to life is passive, new creation is passive, why would God choose such analogies if we choose freely in salvation?

It's clear that you believe we are just actors in a play and that everything we do is simply reciting our lines that God has already written for us.

No, I believe there is real freedom within the will of God, and only there.

"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." (John 8:36)

Blessings,
Lee

[Sparko]

You are talking as if God doesn't know the future!

"For God has shut up all in disobedience [which would include Adam] so that He may show mercy to all." (Rom. 11:32)

God acted, he shut up all in disobedience, in order to show mercy.


No, Jesus urged, Jesus commanded us to seek his kingdom, in order that people might seek him. God's command fulfills its purpose, that is why Jesus bothered to issue his commands.


I believe that God does choose who goes into hell.

"... does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?" (Rom. 9:21-22)

Blessings,
Lee

OK I am just going to say one final word then leave this alone because you apparently are not open to any other view, no matter how many times the bible contradicts you. Your last verse above even contradicts your position. If God chooses who he is sending to hell, then not everyone is being saved like you believe.

And if everyone is being saved, then why bother preaching the gospel?

[Littlejoe]

These are all good verses, but where does it say that people have free will?

Where does it say Trinity in the Bible? Just because the words are there doesn't negate the meaning of the text.

I can interpret the verses commanding a choice as God sending his word to accomplish its purpose, allowing me to hope that all who heard Moses for instance, will indeed choose life, eventually, that they and their children will live.

I think your interpretation has some problems then, because it's clear in the O.T. that Israel again and again didn't choose life but chose to follow after other gods, so, God's command did not accomplish it's purpose. Free will in action...

I must also point out that all the analogies of salvation are passive on our part! There is no depiction of free will in being born, or in being a new creation, or in being brought from death to life.


Blessings,
Lee

Ummm...you interpret the analogies to be passive, that doesn't make it so.


It's clear that you believe we are just actors in a play and that everything we do is simply reciting our lines that God has already written for us.

[lee_merrill]

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 - 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


Joshua 24:15 - But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will servebut they refused to come.

Mark 8:34 - Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said:
John 7:17 - If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself.

Heb 3:12-15 - 12 Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God

These are all good verses, but where does it say that people have free will? I can interpret the verses commanding a choice as God sending his word to accomplish its purpose, allowing me to hope that all who heard Moses for instance, will indeed choose life, eventually, that they and their children will live.

I must also point out that all the analogies of salvation are passive on our part! There is no depiction of free will in being born, or in being a new creation, or in being brought from death to life.

Blessings,
Lee