Jesus' cry from the cross

[robrecht]

Not at all. On the other hand, I don't think anyone who trusts in his ultimate deliverance is going to feel truly abandoned or forsaken.

I suppose we could argue about whatever difference there might be between 'feeling abandoned' and 'to feel truly abandoned', but I think that would just be splitting hairs.

[One Bad Pig]

I didn't think you would. The question was about the intent of Mark's narrative. If Mark believed and portrayed Jesus as sincerely not wanting to undergo his foreseen path, being 'distressed and agitated, deeply grieved, even unto death' (14,33-34), could he not also have portrayed Jesus as praying in the midst of feeling abandoned on the cross and yet also trusting in his ultimate deliverance?

Mark's portrait also reminds me of that of the author of Hebrews, in which Jesus, 'in the days of his flesh, offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death', who 'learned obedience through suffering,' who was thereby 'made perfect' (Heb 5,7-9).

Should we only think of Jesus' suffering as physical, having no emotional and psychological component?

Not at all. On the other hand, I don't think anyone who trusts in his ultimate deliverance is going to feel truly abandoned or forsaken.

[robrecht]

Why would I think he wasn't sincere?

I didn't think you would. The question was about the intent of Mark's narrative. If Mark believed and portrayed Jesus as sincerely not wanting to undergo his foreseen path, being 'distressed and agitated, deeply grieved, even unto death' (14,33-34), could he not also have portrayed Jesus as praying in the midst of feeling abandoned on the cross and yet also trusting in his ultimate deliverance?

Mark's portrait also reminds me of that of the author of Hebrews, in which Jesus, 'in the days of his flesh, offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death', who 'learned obedience through suffering,' who was thereby 'made perfect' (Heb 5,7-9).

Should we only think of Jesus' suffering as physical, having no emotional and psychological component?

[One Bad Pig]

Agreed. There's an interesting narrative being told by the Gospel writers here, taking into consideration both Isaiah and the Psalms.

Isaiah 53:4-5
Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.

Isaiah 59:1-2
Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save,
or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;
but your iniquities have made a separation
between you and your God,
and your sins have hidden his face from you
so that he does not hear.

Psalm 22:1-5
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.

Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises of Israel.
In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.

Matthew 27:46-50Luke 23:44-461 Peter 2:24
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

It looks like the early Christian movement takes into consideration Isaiah's view of the suffering servant as one who takes on the iniquities of the world, and that the Father separates himself from sin. Yet, the Son is not left with these inequities, rather he is delivered, and glorified. Its an intriguing understanding of the view of the second person of the trinity who, in his incarnation, suffers in all ways as man suffers, yet is redeemed and glorified in the end. If Jesus simply died a physical death for the sins of the world, would that be enough? Separation from the Father, even for a short time, seems like the true sacrifice on the cross. Jesus suffered both physical and spiritual death, and so only he can claim to know what suffering is, and to have been tempted in all ways, yet to still do the will the father.

What I don't see in your quoted scriptures is reference to the Father separating Himself from sin. I don't recall any indication in scripture that Jesus died spiritually. And the hymns and homilies of the Orthodox Church referencing His death do not reference any spiritual death. In the words of St. John Chrysostom:
IMO, saying that Jesus died spiritually is perilously close to saying He died in his divinity, which was condemned as a heresy in the early church.

[One Bad Pig]

Let me ask it this way. When Jesus asked, in Mark's gospel, that this cup be removed from him, did Mark think that Jesus was sincere? Or was he just kidding.

Why would I think he wasn't sincere?

[One Bad Pig]

Yes, when a woman says that she is lying to manipulate the man's emotions. Unless she truly believes it -- in which case she is either delusional, or correct.

Please let's not have this conversation in this thread. If you want to continue it, start another thread (like I did here).

[Obsidian]

Do you believe God is still prone to forsaking his people today?

Yes

[The Remonstrant]

Ugh, the formatting got massacred in the copy-and-paste.

You may wish to simply indent your quotes. (This is what I do.)

[The Remonstrant]

Temporarily, yes

Do you believe God is still prone to forsaking his people today? Or is that only something Yahweh was apt to do under the Sinaitic covenant?

[The Remonstrant]

Temporarily, yes

There you go again without the quotes! This is not a good habit of yours, Obsidian.

[Obsidian]

Temporarily, yes

[The Remonstrant]

I already explained that I think Psalm 22:24 is a quotation, and a prediction of the future. Do you want me to exegete the entirety of Job, Habakkuk, and Jeremiah? I don't think those people were lying at all. God definitely abandoned Job, for the most part. [Emphasis added.]

In your estimation, then, it would appear that, in your conception of Yahweh God, he is prone to abandoning his most faithful servants frequently, yes? Think of what you're saying, my friend.

[Manw� S�limo]

Ugh, the formatting got massacred in the copy-and-paste.

[Manw� S�limo]

Also in the social world where Jesus grew up, a grown man was expected to be silent when experiencing pain and suffering (it was from their view of machismo and masculinity) - and yet, they seemed permitted some kind of groaning to signify their innocence. To wit, Richard Rohrbaugh's "Death with Honor: The Mediterranean Style of Death of Jesus in Mark":

[The Remonstrant]

I would also like to reiterate this point:

I still do not see how you are able to cling onto a single verse (namely Jesus' utterance of Psalm 22:1) in order to substantiate your claim that the Father literally abandoned the Son on the cross. . . .

Your position is dangling by a very thin thread.