Once Saved Always Saved?

[KingsGambit]

There are way too many warnings against apostasy in the New Testament to just dismiss them all. (or frankly, for me to list them all). Hebrews 3:6 in particular: But Christ is faithful as the Son over God’s house. And we are his house, if indeed we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope in which we glory.

Jesus's statements about eternal life being a present reality make sense in light of us partaking in the life of the Kingdom while here on Earth. Christianity is more than fire insurance you can cash in when you die; there is life with joy and fellowship right now.

[Sparko]

All I see you saying here is that you don't believe the warnings about apostasy to be true...so, don't worry, be happy?

Or, you agree with DaveL and other Calvinists that "my sheep" are those individuals predestined by God from the very beginning for eternal life. Using your logic, God knows before he ever creates a being whether they will ever be his sheep or not. So, God truly creates people he knows will reject him and are bound for eternal punishment. Correct? therefore, There is no Free Will, you are predestined to believe.

Nope. Although I could argue that God did know you would freely choose him one day. Which means he knew you had eternal life before you were even born or made the decision! Just like he knew what job you wold have, how many children you would have, when and how you will die. So, yes I do think God knows who would be saved before he even made the world, but I don't think he CHOSE you to be saved or ELECTED you to be saved. I just think he has perfect knowledge and know who would exist and who would choose him and who would not. Your free will though.

[Cow Poke]

He walks alone

Maybe we could introduce him to Mickiel, and they could walk together!

[Littlejoe]

There is a difference in promising a future vacation and eternal life. Eternal life means you will never die (not talking about physical death but spiritual). If you have that promise then you can't somehow walk away from it because if you do then the promise is meaningless. If Jesus told me that I have or will have eternal life and he KNOWS I will turn away next week, then he would be lying to me now because he knows I will not remain in the faith.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish."

Either that statement is true "they shall never perish" or it isn't. If I give my life to Jesus now and accept him as my savior he says I have eternal life and shall never perish. How can I then turn away and become an atheist without making him a liar? The only way I can reconcile it is that even if I think I have walked away from him, I still belong to him if I genuinely gave him my life. I might think I am an atheist, but I will still be saved in the end because I still belong to Jesus. I just probably won't hear "well done, good and faithful servant"

All I see you saying here is that you don't believe the warnings about apostasy to be true...so, don't worry, be happy?

Or, you agree with DaveL and other Calvinists that "my sheep" are those individuals predestined by God from the very beginning for eternal life. Using your logic, God knows before he ever creates a being whether they will ever be his sheep or not. So, God truly creates people he knows will reject him and are bound for eternal punishment. Correct? therefore, There is no Free Will, you are predestined to believe.

[Sparko]

I'm going to try to assume that Dave is just a bit misguided, but well meaning, and he only goes from board to board picking fights because.....

hmmm.... that sounded a lot better in my head.

He walks alone

[Cow Poke]

Jim? Oh NOES!!!

I'm going to try to assume that Dave is just a bit misguided, but well meaning, and he only goes from board to board picking fights because.....

hmmm.... that sounded a lot better in my head.

[Sparko]

(But who else do we know with a first name and a L following that? )

(hint - not the sharpest bulb in the shed)

Jim? Oh NOES!!!

[Cow Poke]

Yup. He may be a nutter but at least we are discussing something other than politics. Thanks Dave.

(But who else do we know with a first name and a L following that? )

(hint - not the sharpest bulb in the shed)

[Sparko]

Lookie here!!! Dave L got us discussing THEOLOGY!!!

Yup. He may be a nutter but at least we are discussing something other than politics. Thanks Dave.

[Cow Poke]

Lookie here!!! Dave L got us discussing THEOLOGY!!!

[Sparko]

Well, part of your dilema is exactly why I'm an Open Theist, but that's really neither here nor there. I think if you turn the argument around, the same warnings about apostasy become meaningless as well...do then not? So, what we have to do is (as I already said) examine how these 2 statements, both spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ can both be true.

I simply do not believe that the Biblical statement "God has given us eternal life" means the same thing as "eternal life has already begun for us". As an example, suppose I told you that for my Birthday, I was given an all expenses paid vacation in some place exotic like, the Virgin Islands or some such. That does not mean that my vacation started on my birthday. (Although I guess it could mean that as well) Most people though, would assume that I meant that on my birthday, I was promised a vacation to the Virgin Islands. Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that "Eternal Life" begins when Christ returns in his Glory. I think the clear connotation is that we are HEIRS to Eternal Life, but we have not yet fully inherited it. It's a promise to those who "endure to the end" as Paul says: 2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; because:
2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

There is a difference in promising a future vacation and eternal life. Eternal life means you will never die (not talking about physical death but spiritual). If you have that promise then you can't somehow walk away from it because if you do then the promise is meaningless. If Jesus told me that I have or will have eternal life and he KNOWS I will turn away next week, then he would be lying to me now because he knows I will not remain in the faith.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish."

Either that statement is true "they shall never perish" or it isn't. If I give my life to Jesus now and accept him as my savior he says I have eternal life and shall never perish. How can I then turn away and become an atheist without making him a liar? The only way I can reconcile it is that even if I think I have walked away from him, I still belong to him if I genuinely gave him my life. I might think I am an atheist, but I will still be saved in the end because I still belong to Jesus. I just probably won't hear "well done, good and faithful servant"

[Littlejoe]

But as I said, if you can lose it then you never actually had it to begin with. Eternal life means "forever". Saying you have eternal life now when God knows you will not have it next week is meaningless. If your ultimate destination will be hell [and God knows what your ultimate destination will be now even if you don't] then someone who will one day "apostatize" doesn't actually have eternal life now, they merely think they do. Or put another way they might think they are going to heaven but God knows they are really going to hell because next week they will turn away and apostatize, so even now their destination is really hell not heaven, so they are not "saved" now. Right?

Or they really ARE saved now as Jesus says. They have eternal life and no one can snatch them from the Father's hand, not even themselves. They might "apostatize" and turn away but then they are just wandering sheep and are still saved even though they think they turned away.

It has to be one or the other.

Well, part of your dilema is exactly why I'm an Open Theist, but that's really neither here nor there. I think if you turn the argument around, the same warnings about apostasy become meaningless as well...do then not? So, what we have to do is (as I already said) examine how these 2 statements, both spoken by our Lord Jesus Christ can both be true.

I simply do not believe that the Biblical statement "God has given us eternal life" means the same thing as "eternal life has already begun for us". As an example, suppose I told you that for my Birthday, I was given an all expenses paid vacation in some place exotic like, the Virgin Islands or some such. That does not mean that my vacation started on my birthday. (Although I guess it could mean that as well) Most people though, would assume that I meant that on my birthday, I was promised a vacation to the Virgin Islands. Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that "Eternal Life" begins when Christ returns in his Glory. I think the clear connotation is that we are HEIRS to Eternal Life, but we have not yet fully inherited it. It's a promise to those who "endure to the end" as Paul says: 2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; because:
2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

[Sparko]

If the Bible says that Jesus gives us Eternal Life AND it also says that apostasy is a real and present possibility, then both of those MUST be true. (Unless you think some parts of the New Testament overrule other parts )So, the conclusion is simple Jesus gives Eternal life to those who continue to have faith/trust in his work on the cross for Eternal life. If you walk away from that trust for long enough, then you are in danger of losing Eternal Life.

But as I said, if you can lose it then you never actually had it to begin with. Eternal life means "forever". Saying you have eternal life now when God knows you will not have it next week is meaningless. If your ultimate destination will be hell [and God knows what your ultimate destination will be now even if you don't] then someone who will one day "apostatize" doesn't actually have eternal life now, they merely think they do. Or put another way they might think they are going to heaven but God knows they are really going to hell because next week they will turn away and apostatize, so even now their destination is really hell not heaven, so they are not "saved" now. Right?

Or they really ARE saved now as Jesus says. They have eternal life and no one can snatch them from the Father's hand, not even themselves. They might "apostatize" and turn away but then they are just wandering sheep and are still saved even though they think they turned away.

It has to be one or the other.

[Littlejoe]

Come on Bill, you know that in the bible when they refer to Eternal life they are speaking of Eternal Life with God, not in the lake of fire. It means being saved, not damned. Eternal life means your name is written in the book of life and you will never see hell.

If the Bible says that Jesus gives us Eternal Life AND it also says that apostasy is a real and present possibility, then both of those MUST be true. (Unless you think some parts of the New Testament overrule other parts )So, the conclusion is simple Jesus gives Eternal life to those who continue to have faith/trust in his work on the cross for Eternal life. If you walk away from that trust for long enough, then you are in danger of losing Eternal Life.

[tabibito]

[QUOTE=Sparko;n1341211]

You didn't show I was wrong. Maybe someone might believe they are saved but if God knows that they will one day change their mind (take Starlight for example, at one time he truly believed he was saved but now he is an atheist) then that means even when they thought they had eternal life and were saved they were not. God knew that they would fall away. You can't HAVE eternal life if it will be taken away one day. You merely think you have it. Using Starlight again, he just thought he was saved, but God knew he was not because God knew he would "fall away". OR, he was truly saved when he confessed and put his faith in Jesus as his savior and he is still saved now even though he has "fallen away" and will be one of those who works are burned up but he himself will be saved.

I believe the latter. That someone who truly believes is saved and that means for all time, even if they one day fall away. They will just miss out on rewards and crowns because they wasted their life after they fell away. That doesn't mean that there are not those who do merely think they are saved and never were, like say the Mormons who put their faith in a false Jesus and false Gospel.

I addressed the verses you presented, noting that they are not solid enough for a definitive answer. That is the best that can be done on the basis of those verses - they don't prove anyone's case.

So unambiguous verses ... Matthew 13:20-21 is the only one that I can think of offhand. Maybe look into it further after I've had some sleep.

ETA: You would find an unambiguous verse in Jesus' declaration; "none can snatch him from my hand." There is quite a bit of reconciliation to be done, assuming that there is no genuine contradiction.