System of the Beast makes perfect sense today

[seanD]

Oh?

I included collapse of civilization in the futurist camp simply because this is the picture that end prophecy presents. But one doesn't need to be a futurist to see this as a plausible scenario if they understood global economics; that the four major economic empires -- US, EU, Japan, China -- are on the brink of breakdown. The only thing sustaining their economies is massive amounts of money printing along with massive amounts of debt on top of massive amounts of more debt. This is unsustainable and cannot last forever, especially in light of growing population ratios and ever decreasing natural resources.

[Paprika]

I take it you're also not very privy to economics, particularly global economics.

Oh?

[seanD]

I take it as basic that the first half of the Olivet discourse refers to events that would happen within the lifetime of that generation. With regards to the Revelation I have no firm opinion. This aspect of eschatology isn't something that I view as very important.

I take it you're also not very privy to economics, particularly global economics.

[Paprika]

I take it you're a preterist.

I take it as basic that the first half of the Olivet discourse refers to events that would happen within the lifetime of that generation. With regards to the Revelation I have no firm opinion. This aspect of eschatology isn't something that I view as very important.

[seanD]

"this" is vague. That cashless systems will be more and more popular? Sure. That there will be one and only one global cashless system a la futurism? Very unlikely.

I take it you're a preterist.

[Paprika]

"this" is vague. That cashless systems will be more and more popular? Sure. That there will be one and only one global cashless system a la futurism? Very unlikely.

[seanD]

Meh. It'll be hard to achieve integration of even all the existing cashless systems eg Visa payWave, Paypal, Google Wallet, Amazon's system etc.

Okay, if you consider an isolated nation, it could well be feasible in the long run. But bring in the international nature of many transactions and the inter-national legislation required will be a massive headache.

[Paprika]

I find it to be tremendously troubling.

Meh. It'll be hard to achieve integration of even all the existing cashless systems eg Visa payWave, Paypal, Google Wallet, Amazon's system etc.

Okay, if you consider an isolated nation, it could well be feasible in the long run. But bring in the international nature of many transactions and the inter-national legislation required will be a massive headache.

[KingsGambit]

How ironic is this...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...8#.U4fmnn-u1IA

Even if you don't believe this is setting the stage of end times, you got to admit that digital cash will eventually overshadow physical currency for reasons given in the article and in the OP. When it happens, it will be the single greatest oppressive system and suppression of freedom ever instituted on civilization.

I find it to be tremendously troubling.

[seanD]

How ironic is this...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...8#.U4fmnn-u1IA

Even if you don't believe this is setting the stage of end times, you got to admit that digital cash will eventually overshadow physical currency for reasons given in the article and in the OP. When it happens, it will be the single greatest oppressive system and suppression of freedom ever instituted on civilization.

[seanD]

I honestly don't see how a preterist can make a good argument against futurism and it's interpretation of Rev 13 in light of the direction our modern society is heading.

The Beast is not only compatible with our technology but makes perfect sense in the 21st century. If society becomes completely cashless, not only will it be extremely practical (easily integrating in with our technological awareness which already revolves around digital transactions), but it will virtually cease crime, especially if a digital currency is coupled with a biometric identification.

The problem is, other than the obvious theological one, is that the powers that be will have almost complete control over the populace. For example, say that you do everything with a credit card and have no cash on hand. If you piss off someone who has the power to shut off your credit card, then you're screwed. You might be able to seek legal action if you could find some way to pay, but in the meantime, you have no way to pay for your essentials -- i.e. food, fuel, mortgage/rent, etc.

More examples of things from scripture that make more sense today than in the ancient past:

"Earthquakes in divers places"

Earthquakes were always happening, even before Jesus came to earth. Thus, this fits better in an age where seismological technology is in existence coupled with the technological ability to broadcast each and every earthquake instantly worldwide.

"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars"

Fits better in a world with astronomical technology able to observe "signs" in the sun, moon and stars much more closely.

"Men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world"

This fits better in an age where technology can instantly broadcast simultaneous events happening in the world in an instant.

"But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self"

There was always lovers of self, before and during Paul's day. Thus, this fits better in a time where lovers of self will be manifested in an exceptional way, such as the internet and social media.

[KingsGambit]

b) what's to stop them from forcibly implanting the chip, particularly if they declare you a criminal or officially insane? However, I still personally wouldn't get a chip for religious reasons and based on political principle.

Couldn't almost anything physical be forcibly implanted? I imagine the implication is that people do choose to adopt the mark rather than having the government physically force it on them.

[seanD]

Here are two more reasons why I don't think an RFID chip is the mark of the Beast: a) they've already been implanting chips in people and it has nothing to do with buying or selling; b) what's to stop them from forcibly implanting the chip, particularly if they declare you a criminal or officially insane? However, I still personally wouldn't get a chip for religious reasons and based on political principle.

[seanD]

I didn't phrase that right. What I was trying to say is that if it's absurd to think that the mystical numerical code means something in the future, then it's equally absurd to think an ancient Jew used a mystical numerical code to refer to Nero, who didn't do any of the acts described in Rev other than Christian persecution.

[KingsGambit]

"Humorously absurd" is hopelessly subjective. I feel the same way about some of the ways modern events/technologies are envisioned in religious manners. What matters is what best accounts for the evidence.