Jannes and Jambres' "secret arts"

[Faber]

The Mandela effect had been proven true?
(Is this guy off his rocker, or what??!!!)

[Sparko]

I will leave you to your anger and delusions.

[Darfius]

Of course the bible is divinely inspired. That doesn't preclude the bible being written in layman's language and describing things from an observer's viewpoint. You just seem to be set in the idea it has to be real magic and not an illusion and nothing anyone says will change your mind so you attack them instead. I am open to it being either. It's really not that important to me which it was.

Scripture Verse: Exodus 7

12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snakestaff swallowed up their staffs.

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Where do you see room for an illusion there? Aaron's staff "swallowed up" their staffs, which had to have been in the form of snakes in order for this to make any sense at all. I know you can read, so the only explanation that makes sense to me is that you don't care what the truth of this matter (and therefore not really any matter) is.

Scripture Verse: Exodus 8

But when the magicians tried to produce gnats by their secret arts, they could not.

Since the gnats were on people and animals everywhere, 19 This is the finger of God

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In the plagues before this, the magicians had been able to turn water to blood and produce frogs respectively. To believe they had done so by, for example, pouring red dye into water and hiding frogs in their underwear to produce misses the point. Pharaoh summoned them to do "the same thing" Moses and Aaron were doing to prove that they had no special divine mandate. Aside from the likelihood that attempting to deceive Pharaoh about the veracity of their magic would have gotten them killed, the fact that they could not reproduce the first plague which required changing inanimate matter to life (the staffs were formerly living wood) and admitted "it was the finger of God" shows that they had genuinely reproduced the former plagues.

Why would that make preterism false? Because Satan is bound? There is obviously evil in the world so if he is bound then he is not the only source. Can you give any examples of Satan magic altering matter today? Something that isn't your delusional Mandela Effect?

Scripture Verse: Revelation 20

20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

© Copyright Original Source

So I hope we can agree it would be idiocy to only keep Satan from "deceiving the nations" while allowing all of the powers under him to continue doing so. Clearly the point of this and the rest of the verses preterists put through the shredder is that the Millenium will be distinct from most of human history by virtue of humanity not having to deal with "the powers and principalities" we wrestle against now.

So because there is "obviously evil" in the world, preterism is false.

I don't need to give present day examples of Satan magic altering matter today, though of course the Mandela Effect has been proven true to anyone made aware of it with any integrity, as is its purpose. If it was possible in Moses' day, then of course it's possible now. Nothing has changed, because Satan is still "the god of this world." He hasn't been bound.

[Sparko]

You could save us both a lot of time and effort by just admitting you don't believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible. The language of Exodus makes it clear that the magicians did, in fact, change their staffs into snakes just as Aaron did. Why we are even discussing this is beyond me.

Of course the bible is divinely inspired. That doesn't preclude the bible being written in layman's language and describing things from an observer's viewpoint. You just seem to be set in the idea it has to be real magic and not an illusion and nothing anyone says will change your mind so you attack them instead. I am open to it being either. It's really not that important to me which it was.

If there are Satanically empowered magicians capable of altering matter today for the world powers as they did in the days of Moses, then preterism is false. That seems simple to understand to me.

Why would that make preterism false? Because Satan is bound? There is obviously evil in the world so if he is bound then he is not the only source. Can you give any examples of Satan magic altering matter today? Something that isn't your delusional Mandela Effect?

[Darfius]

The Book of Revelation is highly symbolic, and there is much disagreement over its meaning. Is Chapters 19-20 referring to a literal beast, false prophet and Satan, or are they symbols of the Roman Empire's demise?

I don't know and I'm not making any claims to know everything about Revelation.

The "symbolism" of Revelation is mostly lifted directly from the OT where it is explained, sometimes in vivid detail. You don't know about Revelation because you don't want to know about Revelation. And your willful ignorance and disobedience is quickly catching up with you, as it is for everyone not prepared for these times.

[Darfius]

It could be or it could be just from the perspective of the observer. When I see a magician do a trick I describe what it looks like not what he actually did. I will say "He sawed a woman in half" even though he did no such thing, it was an illusion. And yes the sun standing still WAS a "trick of perspective" which was described from the point of view of the observer.

You could save us both a lot of time and effort by just admitting you don't believe in the divine inspiration of the Bible. The language of Exodus makes it clear that the magicians did, in fact, change their staffs into snakes just as Aaron did. Why we are even discussing this is beyond me.

I don't know. But they believe Satan is a supernatural being, as is God, and they believe God did miracles, and other supernatural things. So to claim they don't believe in the supernatural or supernatural events is just silly.

If there are Satanically empowered magicians capable of altering matter today for the world powers as they did in the days of Moses, then preterism is false. That seems simple to understand to me.

[Faber]

The Book of Revelation is highly symbolic, and there is much disagreement over its meaning. Is Chapters 19-20 referring to a literal beast, false prophet and Satan, or are they symbols of the Roman Empire's demise?

I don't know and I'm not making any claims to know everything about Revelation.

[Sparko]

All I needed to show was that the perspective given was not that merely of the author's. The text says that the sun stood still in the sky, which was an objectively true statement. You and Fibber were attempting to handwave away the work of the magicians as a trick of perspective, but the Bible (Holy Spirit) was clear to word it the way it did to remove that possibility. The magicians' staffs absolutely became snakes "in the same way" that Aaron's did.

It could be or it could be just from the perspective of the observer. When I see a magician do a trick I describe what it looks like not what he actually did. I will say "He sawed a woman in half" even though he did no such thing, it was an illusion. And yes the sun standing still WAS a "trick of perspective" which was described from the point of view of the observer.

I'm confused, is Satan bound according to preterists or not?

I don't know. But they believe Satan is a supernatural being, as is God, and they believe God did miracles, and other supernatural things. So to claim they don't believe in the supernatural or supernatural events is just silly.

[Darfius]

It is still describing the incident from the point of view of the observer. The Earth would have been the thing that stopped not the moon or the sun. From the view of the people on the ground, it appeared as though the sun and moon stopped in the sky. You even admit it your self when you say "that is, from the perspective of someone on earth"

All I needed to show was that the perspective given was not that merely of the author's. The text says that the sun stood still in the sky, which was an objectively true statement. You and Fibber were attempting to handwave away the work of the magicians as a trick of perspective, but the Bible (Holy Spirit) was clear to word it the way it did to remove that possibility. The magicians' staffs absolutely became snakes "in the same way" that Aaron's did.

You still didn't show that preterists don't believe in the supernatural.

I'm confused, is Satan bound according to preterists or not?

[Christianbookworm]

No, I think they are pretty much denying Jesus was any God. Questionable if they actually believe God exists.

The joke(not original to me, came from a book I read recently) is that liberal "Christians" think Jesus was merely an exceptional human, like Batman.

[Thoughtful Monk]

The Batman(denying Jesus was fully God) heresy? Just as bad of a mistake as the Superman heresy(denying that Jesus was fully human)!

No, I think they are pretty much denying Jesus was any God. Questionable if they actually believe God exists.

[Christianbookworm]

The Batman(denying Jesus was fully God) heresy? Just as bad of a mistake as the Superman heresy(denying that Jesus was fully human)!

[Sparko]

I have run into some Christians that don't believe in supernatural events but still call themselves Christians. I think they simply view Jesus as a 'Great Moral Teacher' and call themselves Christian because they are following His moral teachings.

Personally, I hold people like that are not Christians but I can't control what label they apply to themselves.

Yeah I can live in a garage and call myself a car, but that doesn't make me one.

Those who just believe Jesus was just a good teacher are basically fooling themselves, no different than the people who belong to cults.

[Thoughtful Monk]

Regardless, Christians have to believe in supernatural events, or they would not be Christians. God, angels, demons, are all supernatural beings.

I have run into some Christians that don't believe in supernatural events but still call themselves Christians. I think they simply view Jesus as a 'Great Moral Teacher' and call themselves Christian because they are following His moral teachings.

Personally, I hold people like that are not Christians but I can't control what label they apply to themselves.

[Sparko]

Thank you, but the sun did stand still in the sky. That was an objective event, whatever the explanation. The key words are "in the sky". That is not a statement about whether the sun itself stopped moving, but that it did indeed stop moving "in the sky" (that is, from the perspective of someone on earth).

Similarly, the magicians' staffs also turned into snakes when they did "the same" as Aaron, whether the source of their ability was the same as his or not.

It is still describing the incident from the point of view of the observer. The Earth would have been the thing that stopped not the moon or the sun. From the view of the people on the ground, it appeared as though the sun and moon stopped in the sky. You even admit it your self when you say "that is, from the perspective of someone on earth"

Yes, I understand what preterists are better than they do. There is no "just" when it comes to the truth. It alone can set us free, as stated by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. He is the ultimate embodiment of the truth, so if one does not love the truth, that one certainly cannot love Him.

Obviously the presence of world power serving Satanic magicians would be better explained by prophecy being fulfilled in the future rather than Satan having already been bound. This is just one of many reasons preterists are wicked, stupid people leading themselves and others into hell as the Lord Jesus accused the sign [prophecy] ignoring Pharisees of doing.

You still didn't show that preterists don't believe in the supernatural.