Derail thread on Mary

[Leonhard]

I acknowledge the great gift God gave to Mary, but I have not fallen in love with her enough to think she is now a conduit for my prayers. She cannot answer prayer. She does not intercede for us. She is not my mother.

Again, this comes from your belief that no saint in Heaven intercedes for us. I think that's a mistake.

And by your statement that you "doubt there are any of those who make themselves her children who won't be saved", you have done away with the need for Christ and added something else to the way to salvation.

I know what you're saying, but I just told you earlier in this thread that she has no glory she didn't receive from her Son. While she likely suffered more than any martyr when He died on the cross, this merit would not be sufficient to obtain the forgiveness of even the smallest sinner. However, like with the wedding and Christ's first miracle, I do think she can obtain graces for her children, such as repentance, conversion, purity, and other things they need when they try to seek Christ's forgiveness.

This is not the gospel of scripture, it is not the Jesus of scripture, and hence it is false teaching.

So far you haven't represented what I believe, so I have no problem agreeing that some of the things you're talking about is false. However you're the one who's in error if you think the saints in Heaven don't pray for us, or that its somehow only the prayers of sinful humans on Earth who matter. You're also in error if you think the Virgin Mary won't intercede for us, or that if she does that there's anything her Son will refuse her.

Since you're not using Scripture, I think in the end this is going to come down to a discussion of Tradition, and who has the authority to interpret it.

[Paprika]

Such as? I am not aware of any.

But then again, you're a new Catholic so maybe you don't know: despite the careful delineation of the dogma it is quite common for the average Catholics to treat her as a god. And let us of course not forget all the increasing centralisation of Mariology into much Catholic praxis (as mossrose pointed out re: JPII) and theology, eg the increasing popularity of "co-redemptrix", "mediatrix of all graces" and

I happen to believe that this pattern holds for other marian doctrines and dogmas: when we talk about Mary, we're fortifying our commitment to some other significant theological or soteriological concept.

[mossrose]

During sacred liturgies her prayers invoked at certain points, at the penitential rite for instance.

Beyond that, there isn't really anything a Catholic has to do other than acknowledge the glory God gave to her.

I personally fell in love with her. And I direct most if not all prayers through her. Christ gave her to us for a mother, I doubt there are any of those who make themselves her children who wont be saved.

I acknowledge the great gift God gave to Mary, but I have not fallen in love with her enough to think she is now a conduit for my prayers. She cannot answer prayer. She does not intercede for us. She is not my mother.

And by your statement that you "doubt there are any of those who make themselves her children who won't be saved", you have done away with the need for Christ and added something else to the way to salvation.

This is not the gospel of scripture, it is not the Jesus of scripture, and hence it is false teaching.

[mossrose]

T

They are not dead, but alive in Christ, and, of course, they care about us and love us. They cannot love God without loving their brothers and sisters in Christ, all mankind, and all creation. I know that you believe in the communion of saints, which means we are all in communion with each other in Christ. How could we not care for each other?

Yet she on earth has union
with God, the Three in One,
and mystic sweet communion
with those whose rest is won:
O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we,
like them, the meek and lowly,
on high may dwell with Thee.

If you think that is what that song means, you are mistaken. Unless you think that the saints in the presence of the Lord are also praying to us just as you pray to them. Frankly, I haven't had any dead saints talking to me lately. Never, actually.

That song, all the way through, IS referring to the whole body of Christ, those living, and those in glory. The very first line is "The church's one foundation is JESUS CHRIST HER LORD". Emphasis mine. No Mary in there, anywhere. No mention of her in the entire hymn.

The "mystic, sweet communion" we share with those in God's presence is simply that we are all part of the body of CHRIST (not Mary), and we desire to be with them in heaven. Singing praises to Him, not worrying about what is occurring on the earth.

[Leonhard]

So we might as well venerate Christ and not Mary

During sacred liturgies her prayers invoked at certain points, at the penitential rite for instance.

Beyond that, there isn't really anything a Catholic has to do other than acknowledge the glory God gave to her.

I personally fell in love with her. And I direct most if not all prayers through her. Christ gave her to us for a mother, I doubt there are any of those who make themselves her children who wont be saved.

and avoid all the idolatry

Such as? I am not aware of any.

[Paprika]

Her son is like a sun, giving off its own light. She's like the moon, giving off a reflection of this light, having none inherently on its own. Any respect we pay to any glory given to the Virgin Mary is respect we give to Christ.

So we might as well venerate Christ and not Mary and avoid all the idolatry the latter tends to.

[robrecht]

What? I am talking about people praying to Mary to intercede for them with Christ, and ultimately, God the Father. I can pray to any person of the Trinity without having to ask another sinful human to do it for me. And although we often ask others to pray on our behalf, they are living people, not dead ones.

And Mary was another sinful human who I am certain would be telling people they are in error praying to her, venerating her, even paying the slightest bit of attention to her beyond what is told us about her in scripture, if she even cared about what we are doing.

She is likely too busy glorifying her Saviour to even have a single thought about anyone here, let alone intercede for anybody.

They are not dead, but alive in Christ, and, of course, they care about us and love us. They cannot love God without loving their brothers and sisters in Christ, all mankind, and all creation. I know that you believe in the communion of saints, which means we are all in communion with each other in Christ. How could we not care for each other?

Yet she on earth has union
with God, the Three in One,
and mystic sweet communion
with those whose rest is won:
O happy ones and holy!
Lord, give us grace that we,
like them, the meek and lowly,
on high may dwell with Thee.

[Spartacus]

Has the Dormition of The Mother of God also been declared infallible in the Catholic Church or is it so far only the Assumption (if so I fully expect the Dormition to follow someday).

The doctrines are not identical, but they refer to basically the same event such that I don't feel particularly bad about conflating them despite the small distinctions. The dormition has not been declared infallible, and I guess I'd actually be surprised if it were.

[Thoughtful Monk]

The title of theotokos goes back about 1500 years . The tradition of the Assumption/Dormition goes back to the time of the early Church, though it was only declared infallibly in the last hundred years.

I remember reading there was a lot of debate about theotokos before it became official. It might do us all some good to read what they discussed on it back to understand where the term comes from and what it means.

I have found a lot of doctrine is more refined that what I originally believed and the commentary helps. For example, I was reading on doctrines on the nature of the Trinity and found a couple points of my belief were borderline heresy.

[Leonhard]

The title of theotokos goes back about 1500 years . The tradition of the Assumption/Dormition goes back to the time of the early Church, though it was only declared infallibly in the last hundred years.

Has the Dormition of The Mother of God also been declared infallible in the Catholic Church or is it so far only the Assumption (if so I fully expect the Dormition to follow someday).

[Spartacus]

Well, thanks for correcting me on that point. Which mostly only proves that Mariology has been around for longer than JPII and millions of Catholics have been following her for probably hundreds of years.

The title of theotokos goes back about 1500 years . The tradition of the Assumption/Dormition goes back to the time of the early Church, though it was only declared infallibly in the last hundred years.

[mossrose]

They didn't follow it as it if were directly from God-- they followed it because they found it persuasive on its own merits. JPII was not the sole cause or even a significant factor in any growth of Marian devotion. He's representative of a long-standing tradition, but as far as I know, he added nothing new to it.

Well, thanks for correcting me on that point. Which mostly only proves that Mariology has been around for longer than JPII and millions of Catholics have been following her for probably hundreds of years.

[Spartacus]

Then why did millions of Catholics follow his example as if it were directly from God?

They didn't follow it as it if were directly from God-- they followed it because they found it persuasive on its own merits. JPII was not the sole cause or even a significant factor in any growth of Marian devotion. He's representative of a long-standing tradition, but as far as I know, he added nothing new to it.

If Mary was without original sin, then she didn't need a Saviour. Were Mary's mother and father also without original sin in order for Mary to be conceived without sin? If so, then why are they not venerated as Mary is, and their parents, and back beyond the mists of time?

Because for Mary to be without original sin, then her father at the very least must have been sinless. And then what do you do with the verse that says, "For ALL have sinned and come sort of the glory of God"?

Does that get tossed out because it doesn't line up with infallible papal decree?

You're referring to Romans 3:23, which I already referenced briefly in post #15 of this thread I've done my homework on this issue. If you're willing to listen, I'm confident I can explain the Church's understanding of Mary to your satisfaction.

[Leonhard]

It is not denying that Jesus was born of her. It is denying that she has anything to do with our salvation other than allowing herself to be used within God's will. It does not call for veneration of her in any other way.

Sure it calls for her veneration. I'm not sure how anyone Christ worked so close with could not be venerated, without disrespecting Him in some way.

Catholics don't think that the Virgin Mary was used against God's Will. It was entirely in His will that she be the new Eve, just as her Son is the new Adam. The last thing Christ did before giving up His spirit was to speak with her, honouring her by making St. John (and the whole Church by extension) her child, and giving her as the Church's mother.

It only diminishes her role in the sense that that is ALL she did. She didn't and doesn't do anything else for us.

If you think about it, there is one example in the New Testament where she interceded with her Son, and He did not refuse her request. I think though in general you have an issue not so much with Marian devotion here, but with the idea that any saint in Heaven can intercede for us. As I said before, if its good to venerate saint, then its almost a no brainer that the Virgin Mary should be venerated more than all the other saints. The only reason you'd not want to venerate her, is if there's no reason to honour the things God does with any human at all.

Likewise with prayer. If you can pray to a saint in Heaven, then you can most definitely pray to her, and its hard to think of anyone better to approach. The only reason you'd not want to pray with her (other than not being devoted to her), is that you think that its somehow wrong to pray to saints in Heaven.

Scripture says all believers bodies are to be temples of God. We are used in different ways.

This is not denied, but we're temples of the Holy Spirit. She must have been that in a very special way, given that the whole incarnation (which was a work of the Holy Spirit) got to take place inside her. Some go so far as to call her The Spouse of the Holy Spirit for that reason. And she was also a Temple of the Incarnate Word. She was the true Ark of the Covenant, litterally carrying the Word of God within her. And think about the reverence the Ark was treated with in the Old Testament, when it carried the Ten Commandments. And the Virgin Mary is even greater here!

And I don't disrespect the fact that Mary bore the Son of God in her womb. I disrespect how Catholics and others venerate her and make her almost equal to Christ for doing so.

Saying that the Virgin Mary is almost equal to Christ, is like saying that 1 is almost equal to infinity. All Catholics, and all Eastern Orthodox, fully affirm that any glory the Virgin Mary has comes solely from the merit of her Son, all the graces she enjoyed, and even her purity were all for the sake of her Son, to magnify Him, and to make her a fitting throne for him.

Her son is like a sun, giving off its own light. She's like the moon, giving off a reflection of this light, having none inherently on its own. Any respect we pay to any glory given to the Virgin Mary is respect we give to Christ. So in that sense, there's not really any limit to how highly we can venerate her, as long as we don't attribute to her things that belong solely to God. We don't, so likely we're probably venerating her too little.

Furthermore, while its true that Jesus says the Virgin Mary was blessed for carrying him, and nursing him, he implies that its her faith and love that made her the greatest of all Christians. And she believed in him before He had even been born, and was there every step throughout His passion and death.

[mossrose]

None of those statements as such were infallible simply by merit of JPII saying them, though I daresay all of them are nonetheless defensible.

Then why did millions of Catholics follow his example as if it were directly from God?

I believe I already pointed this out, but the Immaculate Conception-- the idea that Mary was, by the Grace of God, conceived without original sin-- was infallibly defined in the mid 19th century.

If Mary was without original sin, then she didn't need a Saviour. Were Mary's mother and father also without original sin in order for Mary to be conceived without sin? If so, then why are they not venerated as Mary is, and their parents, and back beyond the mists of time?

Because for Mary to be without original sin, then her father at the very least must have been sinless. And then what do you do with the verse that says, "For ALL have sinned and come sort of the glory of God"?

Does that get tossed out because it doesn't line up with infallible papal decree?