Derail thread on Mary

[Faber]

And on a more historical side: Do we have evidence of 1st Century Jews directing similar veneration, prayer, etc. to the Patriarchs for example? e.g. praying to Abraham to intercede before God on their behalf or something like that?

You got the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:1-31), but the rich man was already dead and it didn't get him anywhere.

[Bisto]

Mary, the saints, ancient Jews and Christians

Hello! I'm not sure whether I should post this here or on the "Mary Mother of God" thread... but I'll do it here.

I read this thread (and a couple others related) the other day and, as an Evangelical, I must thank all Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox brethren for explaining how they understand Marian devotion, veneration of the saints, etc. I didn't previously know how you guys looked at this stuff, only how my Evangelical brethren make it look when asked (some of them raised RCC), but now it kind of makes sense to me how you arrive to such conclusions. Nonetheless, I still find it odd about those who would pray more to Mary than to God/Jesus/Spirit, or otherwise dedicate more time to their veneration than to Him, etc.


On these topics, I have the following broad questions: what do you think the 1st century church would say on these practices? Would a prison-bound Paul pray to Stephen to intercede for him and the Church? Would he support Christians asking the Patriarchs to intercede for them rather than praying to God? After Mary passed away (or was assumed to heaven, if that's what you believe happened to her), would a John approve of lay Christians directing their prayers at Mary, or giving her the level of devotion she gets nowadays in some places? etc.


And on a more historical side: Do we have evidence of 1st Century Jews directing similar veneration, prayer, etc. to the Patriarchs for example? e.g. praying to Abraham to intercede before God on their behalf or something like that? From what we know, would their "polemically strict monotheism", so to describe it, see such ideas favorably?

(I know it's been explained how this shouldn't be confused with idolatry, but it has also been pointed out that some lay Catholics do bring it to the point of worshipping Mary, in their own words. Some older sisters in my Church who came out of the RCC see these practices in a very negative light to this day... and it'd be interesting to consider how ancient Jews and the first Christians would have looked at it.)


I'm already thinking that for the 1st Century Jews, maybe one could say they didn't have this "Body dynamic" that was true for the Church, and from what I've seen in posts in this thread, this is seen as the heart of asking brethren who have passed away to intercede on behalf of the earth-bound Church. But still, I'd like to see your thoughts on this, and whatever historical evidence could shed light on what the ancient Christians would have thought about the practices that stem from said line of thought.


Thanks in advance for your replies!

Isaac.

[mossrose]

Jesus Christ, Who is man, is not a person ? Salvation is intimately personal, which is why persons save persons. The Bible can only do what the Law is described as doing in Romans 7 - it can only condemn. For salvation (including salvation from the bondage of the Bible), persons are needed.

I was excepting Christ. The Bible is not bondage. It is God's word, presenting the law of God, and pointing to the ONLY way to salvation, Christ. If you feel bondage to God's word, then perhaps you need to rethink whether or not you have salvation.

Mary is not venerated nearly enough. To talk of her as a vessel is horribly demeaning - it's de-humanising, no different from calling people "elements". It is beyond belief that some people honour dead politicians (who may be damned, for all that all anyone knows, which means they are enemies of Christ) while making a scruple of honouring the Mother of God whom, through His angel, God Himself calls "Blessed among women".

Mary was a servant of God. She had a special place in history. I do not dishonour her by calling her a vessel. I just do not worship her. Only the triune God is worthy of worship.

And for the record, I don't venerate any dead politicians or any other dead person, for that matter.

[Rushing Jaws]

Sorry. To say that any person plays any sort of role in our salvation is error.

She was the human vessel to carry the Saviour, but she needed Him the same as anybody else. She is blessed because of her willingness to obey God in this, but should not be venerated as she has been by the Catholics and Orthodox.

This is an unreconcilable point that can't be bridged by any ecumenism.

Jesus Christ, Who is man, is not a person ? Salvation is intimately personal, which is why persons save persons. The Bible can only do what the Law is described as doing in Romans 7 - it can only condemn. For salvation (including salvation from the bondage of the Bible), persons are needed.

Mary is not venerated nearly enough. To talk of her as a vessel is horribly demeaning - it's de-humanising, no different from calling people "elements". It is beyond belief that some people honour dead politicians (who may be damned, for all that all anyone knows, which means they are enemies of Christ) while making a scruple of honouring the Mother of God whom, through His angel, God Himself calls "Blessed among women".

[One Bad Pig]

Why? [It is still a perceived issue to some. It needs to be shown that it cannot be necromancy.]

Necromancy is about using incantations/magic to coerce a conversation with the dead (or to compel the dead to do various things, which is even less relevant). Prayer to the saints has nothing of the magical about it, is not coercion, and is not an attempt to have a conversation. It is merely a request for intercession made to the dead in faith that it will be heard and acted on. Calling that necromancy is no more than polemics.

Asking prayer from living persons is not the same as asking them that sleep, that is asking them who who are dead waiting their resurrection from the dead.

God is not the God of the dead, but the living.

[Bill the Cat]

I couldn't care less how you regard it.

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[Paprika]

Not cool.

I couldn't care less how you regard it.

[Leonhard]

Buzz off.

Not cool.

[Paprika]

Paprika there is absolutely no reason for you to attempt to pick a fight with Leo. Show some restraint. If you want to pick fights I am sure we have atheists in apo 301 who are happy to oblige.

Buzz off.

[Catholicity]

Exactly, which is why I was rather nonplussed that Leonhard would deny it, and chalked it up to his relative newness to Catholicism .

Paprika there is absolutely no reason for you to attempt to pick a fight with Leo. Show some restraint. If you want to pick fights I am sure we have atheists in apo 301 who are happy to oblige.

[37818]

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[Paprika]

There are plenty of people who worship Mary, whether explicitly or implicitly. When you have more than 1.2 billion members worldwide, many in places where public education is extremely low, and superstition is very high, it'd be the height of naivety to assume that there aren't Catholics who don't actively worship Mary in the way a god is normally worshiped. To deny this doesn't seem very sincere.

Exactly, which is why I was rather nonplussed that Leonhard would deny it, and chalked it up to his relative newness to Catholicism.

Surely we can all agree that there are many Protestants who hold to unorthodox beliefs, so it seems certain that there are Catholics that do so as well. The problem that many Protestants have with Catholicism and the Orthodox Church is that there doesn't seem to be any effort to remove that context or feel of worship away from Mary.

Precisely. In fact, adoration of Mary in recent times by the Popes such as JP II and Benedict has only intensified.

Also, when in official doctrine common words or phrases ('Mother of God', 'co-redemptrix', 'Queen of Heaven' and so on) have to carefully (re)defined it is obvious that the the nuances created to remain within orthodoxy will be lost on a great deal of the common people.

[Paprika]

Before I step back, though, it may be worth mentioning that it's my impression that Marian devotion among Catholics, aside from strongly ethnic populations, has been on the decline. It may be true that Catholics are very bad at understanding what their faith is actually about, but these days you can see that far more clearly in the protests surrounding the removal of teachers in Catholic schools who have entered into same-sex marriages.

As you say, decline in Mariology is rather limited and parochial, likely due to sexual liberalisation leading to a lower appreciation of the pure and hence the cult of Mary.

[Spartacus]

There are enough people now in this discussion that any points I try to raise are likely to be either lost or turned around to mean more or less the opposite of what I actually meant (both of which I've already seen happen in this thread). In any case, Leonhard and OBP are both quite capable of presenting the tried and true apologetical arguments. You've got an Eastern Orthodox and a Catholic, both converts. Neither can be dismissed as having been brainwashed, and both seem to have a stronger Marian devotion than I do. And then there's robrecht, who seems to know a lot of little details of ecclesiastical history that I don't. So, yeah, not much more reason for me to be here.

Before I step back, though, it may be worth mentioning that it's my impression that Marian devotion among Catholics, aside from strongly ethnic populations, has been on the decline. It may be true that Catholics are very bad at understanding what their faith is actually about, but these days you can see that far more clearly in the protests surrounding the removal of teachers in Catholic schools who have entered into same-sex marriages.

[One Bad Pig]

There are two issues: Necromancy.

Prayer to the saints has nothing to do with necromancy.

And that the man Jesus Christ is to be our sole intercessor.

Then I hope you never ask anyone to pray for you.