Originally posted by shunyadragon
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Ex Cathedra Papal Statement and the Bible.
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Originally posted by robrecht View Post
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostHans King has not given up on this discussion:
http://ncronline.org/news/theology/i...s-pope-francis
http://ncronline.org/news/theology/f...libility-dogma
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Hans King has not given up on this discussion:
http://ncronline.org/news/theology/i...s-pope-francis
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The decision limited papal authority as well in making any political decisions. More or less the papacy was now effectively relegated only to the church instead of being a political authority. In modern eyes it looks awful but going back to Europe in 1870 it probably made a lot of political sense to the authorities of other countries. They could now decide on their own what to do. However it doesn't mean it was right. It just denotes a shift in European idea of whose in charge over what.
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostBefore 1870, people disagreed: that's why the Council felt the need to precisely define what exactly Papal authority was. There were those who thought he should exercising political authority (deposing princes and the like) as part of his authority as pope.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo basically the idea that the Pope can be infallible was decided by fallible men for personal reasons.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo basically the idea that the Pope can be infallible was decided by fallible men for personal reasons.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThere were earlier efforts to make claims upon the idea of papal infallibility and irreformability by early Franciscans who objected to later popes granting dispensations and privileges to more lax Franciscans. The more rigorist Franciscans claimed that later popes could not change the ruling of Pope Innocent III when he originally approved the rule of St Francis. Ultimately, the idea is traced back to interpretations of Mt 16; there are, of course, disputed interpretations of how Peter's role and that of his successors should be understood.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostProbably from some pope several centuries ago.Originally posted by Spartacus View PostThe push for a strong papacy actually came from Catholics in post-revolutionary countries who wanted a counter-balance to the aggressive secular regimes with which they were confronted.Last edited by robrecht; 04-10-2015, 01:07 PM.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostSo before 1870, popes were not considered to be infallible?
Or are you saying that before 1870, Popes were considered infallible in all things but after 1870 only in questions of faith and morals?
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Originally posted by Spartacus View PostIt was defined by the First Vatican Council in 1870 in the document Pastor Aeternus. As for the reasoning behind it, that bit of history is still the subject of some controversy. There were those who wanted Papal authority defined much more broadly than it was, but, in the end, defining Papal authority as properly limited to questions of faith and morals puts definitive constraints on the authority of the Pope, who prior to the nationalist revolutions of the 19th century had exercised some degree of immediate political authority, and one camp wanted the Council to assert that the Papal authority naturally included political matters. The Council ultimately disappointed this camp.
Or are you saying that before 1870, Popes were considered infallible in all things but after 1870 only in questions of faith and morals?
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostProbably from some pope several centuries ago.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostWhere does the idea that the Pope can be infallible in certain circumstances come from anyway?
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