Originally posted by One Bad Pig
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This forum is primarily for Christians to discuss matters of Christian doctrine, and is not the area for debate between atheists (or those opposing orthodox Christianity) and theists. Inquiring atheists (or sincere seekers/doubters/unorthodox) seeking only Christian participation and having demonstrated a manner that does not seek to undermine the orthodox Christian faith of others are also welcome, but must seek Moderator permission first. When defining 'Christian' for purposes of this section, we mean persons holding to the core essentials of the historic Christian faith such as the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment. Persons not holding to these core doctrines are welcome to participate in the Comparative Religions section without restriction, in Theology 201 as regards to the nature of God and salvation with limited restrictions, and in Christology for issues surrounding the person of Christ and the Trinity. Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions. Additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream orthodox doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101.
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. . . the Real Presence in the Eucharist or another Jesus another gospel.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostOne need only look at the Jewish ritual that the Eucharist was modeled after to excuse those arguments. Every item in the Shabbat meal had a significance and reference to Messiah. None were actually Him, but all were symbols to point to Him, from the plates to the salt to the bread to the prayers offered. Offending any of these items was akin to offending Messiah Himself.
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostI don't think the belief in the real presence is necessary for salvation, however, I find that a lack of belief in the real presence dismisses the importance of communion, and it also allows for some irreverence, as well as the relevance of it to the Christian walk.
and dismisses the scriptures that strongly imply that as we partake in communion we are partaking in the Sacrifice of Christ.
I mean we can agree that if we partake of baptism we participate in the resurrection so why ought we not partake and reverence the communion. I am more inclined that communion is holy and should be done kneeling and prefer the Lutheran/Anglican belief on it, but am less inclined to the Catholic belief on it.
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Originally posted by Bill the Cat View PostOne need only look at the Jewish ritual that the Eucharist was modeled after to excuse those arguments. Every item in the Shabbat meal had a significance and reference to Messiah. None were actually Him, but all were symbols to point to Him, from the plates to the salt to the bread to the prayers offered. Offending any of these items was akin to offending Messiah Himself.
Leave a comment:
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One need only look at the Jewish ritual that the Eucharist was modeled after to excuse those arguments. Every item in the Shabbat meal had a significance and reference to Messiah. None were actually Him, but all were symbols to point to Him, from the plates to the salt to the bread to the prayers offered. Offending any of these items was akin to offending Messiah Himself.
Leave a comment:
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Originally posted by Catholicity View PostI don't think the belief in the real presence is necessary for salvation, however, I find that a lack of belief in the real presence dismisses the importance of communion, and it also allows for some irreverence, as well as the relevance of it to the Christian walk.
and dismisses the scriptures that strongly imply that as we partake in communion we are partaking in the Sacrifice of Christ.
I mean we can agree that if we partake of baptism we participate in the resurrection so why ought we not partake and reverence the communion. I am more inclined that communion is holy and should be done kneeling and prefer the Lutheran/Anglican belief on it, but am less inclined to the Catholic belief on it.
Leave a comment:
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I don't think the belief in the real presence is necessary for salvation, however, I find that a lack of belief in the real presence dismisses the importance of communion, and it also allows for some irreverence, as well as the relevance of it to the Christian walk. and dismisses the scriptures that strongly imply that as we partake in communion we are partaking in the Sacrifice of Christ. I mean we can agree that if we partake of baptism we participate in the resurrection so why ought we not partake and reverence the communion. I am more inclined that communion is holy and should be done kneeling and prefer the Lutheran/Anglican belief on it, but am less inclined to the Catholic belief on it.
Leave a comment:
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostSame thing with Mary too. Do you think Jesus likes his followers bringing his mother into their fights with one another? But, of course, we all know that Mary does help Notre Dame win football games.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostSame way with the Holy Spirit, Rob. When Jesus told His disciples He would "pray the Father" that the Holy Spirit be sent so we would not be alone in our walk, I can't believe He intended for the Holy Spirit to be a constant source of division in our Churches. Yet many of our arguments come about over who "has the Holy Spirit", when one "gets" the Holy Spirit, whether or not tongues is required as proof of Salvation, etc.
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Originally posted by robrecht View PostThank you for bringing up, St Paul:
"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?"
Now one can try and define the meaning of the Eucharist in many ways, and the above words speak of participation in the body and blood of Christ's sacrifice, the latter element perhaps only hinted at here, but one pont is crystal clear, namely, that the Eucharist should be a source of communion among all of us, as members of the body of Christ. I do not believe that Jesus, on the night before he died, celebrated a final meal with his disciples and thereby intended to institute theological dissension and a source of division among his followers. And yet, the various interpretations of the Eucharist have been a matter of bitter dispute in the history of the church, especially since the Reformation. I do not believe that was Jesus' intent.
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Thank you for bringing up, St Paul:
"The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a sharing in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a sharing in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread. Consider the people of Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?"
Now one can try and define the meaning of the Eucharist in many ways, and the above words speak of participation in the body and blood of Christ's sacrifice, the latter element perhaps only hinted at here, but one pont is crystal clear, namely, that the Eucharist should be a source of communion among all of us, as members of the body of Christ. I do not believe that Jesus, on the night before he died, celebrated a final meal with his disciples and thereby intended to institute theological dissension and a source of division among his followers. And yet, the various interpretations of the Eucharist have been a matter of bitter dispute in the history of the church, especially since the Reformation. I do not believe that was Jesus' intent.
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I'm not sure where you're going with this. At first glance, most of your post has no explicit connection to the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Could you clarify the connection?
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. . . the Real Presence in the Eucharist or another Jesus another gospel.
". . . But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, . . . or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, . . ." -- 2 Corinthians 11:3-4.
Now I honestly believe that the claims of the so-called Real Presence in the Eucharist is a false Jesus and a false gospel. So what I am asking here is if you believe such, how did you come to that belief?
Now I believe being born of God is what God does for those whom He saves.
"Who were born . . . of God." -- John 1:13.
"Whosoever believeth Jesus is the Christ is born of God, . . ." -- 1 John 5:1.
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me [Jesus saying this] hath everlasting life." -- John 6:47.
It is just that simple. God does the saving. God does the keeping.Last edited by 37818; 05-23-2014, 12:48 AM.Tags: None
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