‘Theology Matters’—Why One Worship Leader Can No Longer Support Hillsong...

[tabibito]

Exactly!







I was just giving cbw an example of the dross that’s out there. You don’t have to look if you don’t want to. I feel the same way about spiders.

Well - I'm not an arachnophobe, except when it comes to white tailed spiders, redbacks, and [(thankfully they don't live in SA) funnel webs] so ... my sentiments exactly.

[Cerebrum123]

Well, there's emotion, and then there's ecstatic frenzy. The latter is what I was referring to.

That's not how you worded it. Worded as it was, it is very easy to take it the wrong way.

[Cow Poke]

Please correct me if I am misunderstanding what you are saying here. I think you are saying that style, in this context, doesn't matter?

I'm saying that style matters enough that we can't really "merge" congregations - they'd be bored to tears with our way of worship, and our blue haired old ladies would have convulsions with their style of worship.

In that sense, it matters a whole lot. As to whether they love the Lord as much as we do, the style in which they worship doesn't matter at all.

[Christianbookworm]

Why are people singing bad pop songs in church? The song didn't have anything to do with worship! And the boyfriend Jesus songs are creepy. The Church is the Bride of Christ, but not like that....

[mossrose]

That's not how you worded it. Worded as it was, it is very easy to take it the wrong way.

Sorry. I should have worded it better.

[mossrose]

I'm saying that style matters enough that we can't really "merge" congregations - they'd be bored to tears with our way of worship, and our blue haired old ladies would have convulsions with their style of worship.

In that sense, it matters a whole lot. As to whether they love the Lord as much as we do, the style in which they worship doesn't matter at all.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying!

[mossrose]

Why are people singing bad pop songs in church? The song didn't have anything to do with worship! And the boyfriend Jesus songs are creepy. The Church is the Bride of Christ, but not like that....

Exactly.

[Thoughtful Monk]

It's a shame that article didn't give -- or, AFAICT, even link to -- any specific examples of problematic lyrics.

Also, if you follow the "supernatural ministry" link, it's clear that this statement -- "California-based Bethel Church has been controversial partly because of its focus on supernatural ministry" -- is so misleading as to at least border on dishonesty.

If you want to check out the lyrics, go to YouTube and search for Hillsong or Elevation. You'll get plenty of options to listen to.

[Thoughtful Monk]

I'm saying that style matters enough that we can't really "merge" congregations - they'd be bored to tears with our way of worship, and our blue haired old ladies would have convulsions with their style of worship.
In that sense, it matters a whole lot. As to whether they love the Lord as much as we do, the style in which they worship doesn't matter at all.

I had a talk with a pastor along this lines. We were in a building that housed 5 different churches. (Which I think is a good way to use your space if you have a lot space and little congregation and this was a big church we were in.) The church in the main sanctuary had taken out the traditional altar and replaced it with a black background and a speakers podium. The pastor said he didn't like that. I commented that if I'm hearing the word of God being proclaimed, I really don't care about the format.

I think sometimes Christians get too hung up on form and not on substance - which is actually getting us back to the OP.

[Cow Poke]

I had a talk with a pastor along this lines. We were in a building that housed 5 different churches. (Which I think is a good way to use your space if you have a lot space and little congregation and this was a big church we were in.) The church in the main sanctuary had taken out the traditional altar and replaced it with a black background and a speakers podium. The pastor said he didn't like that. I commented that if I'm hearing the word of God being proclaimed, I really don't care about the format.

I think sometimes Christians get too hung up on form and not on substance - which is actually getting us back to the OP.

Part of the concern, however, is that some churches, in an apparent attempt to be relevant, start focusing on appealing to the masses rather than focus on "It's all about Jesus".

I have seen numerous cases where churches change their format or platform or building or style - in hopes of gaining more people - and all they do is push away the faithful attenders who simply want Jesus preached.

[tabibito]

Part of the concern, however, is that some churches, in an apparent attempt to be relevant, start focusing on appealing to the masses rather than focus on "It's all about Jesus".

I have seen numerous cases where churches change their format or platform or building or style - in hopes of gaining more people - and all they do is push away the faithful attenders who simply want Jesus preached.

Agreed. To paraphrase (or extrapolate from) a couple of comments in scripture: Relevance to the world is irrelevance to heaven.

[NorrinRadd]

This is a pretty good article. I haven’t looked deeply into this guy’s theology but the article is on point.

https://pastorunlikely.com/worship-m...tered-worship/

[*]When in doubt, sing Scripture – There are some great songs that have been written throughout church history that are taken directly from the Bible. If you are doubting the music that you have been singing, test them against the Bible and see if they hold up. If they are directly out of the Bible you can’t go wrong.

One nitpick: I always enjoyed singing "Blow the Trumpet in Zion," whose lyrics are taken pretty directly from Joel 2 -- until I read them in context. It's not a celebratory context, it's a context of the LORD's coming judgment.

[NorrinRadd]

This site lists a few.

http://pomomusings.com/2010/01/06/bad-praise-music/

Also

Crazy Beautiful by Chasen

Everybody’s been there everyone’s the same
but mostly we don’t care isn’t that a shame
We bring us down face after face
the inside is beautiful but the outside we want to change.
We want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Well every new year you say your gonna change
From the way you live to how much you weigh,
we don’t want to change.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are
You’re crazy beautiful
Take a look it’s all around you
See the world from different views
The way you shine from the inside
I know with out a doubt
It’s more than what you’ll be
In the world’s eyes.
Whoa you’re oh so beautiful, you don’t need anyone’s a approval
You’ve got to believe in your self you know you are


There are lots out there if you do a search.

Ew.

I mean, it's fine to want to uplift people who feel downtrodden, and to encourage them to not be overly focused on what others think of them, but... ew.

[NorrinRadd]

I love the various "Petra Praise" albums, but most of them are not well suited to corporate praise and worship.

[mossrose]

One nitpick: I always enjoyed singing "Blow the Trumpet in Zion," whose lyrics are taken pretty directly from Joel 2 -- until I read them in context. It's not a celebratory context, it's a context of the LORD's coming judgment.

Nothing wrong with that. The LORD will come in judgment and I think that speaks to His character, so why not? Quite a few hymns speak to that.

Day of Judgment, Day of Wonders (John Newton)
(Probably one of the best comprehensive hymns on the day of judgment.)
At His call the dead awaken,
Rise to life from earth and sea;
All the powers of nature shaken
By His look, prepares to flee.
Careless sinner, what will then become of thee?


Jesus is Lord (Keith Getty & Stuart Townend)
“Jesus is Lord!”-a shout of joy, a cry of anguish,
As He returns, and ev’ry knee bows low.
Then ev’ry eye and ev’ry heart will see His glory,
The Judge of all will take His children home.



How Sweet and Aweful (Isaac Watts)
Twas the same love that spread the feast
That sweetly drew us in;
Else we had still refused to taste,
And perished in our sin.

Etc.