14-year-old Texas boy arrested for bringing homemade clock

[Sam]

Nobody ever denied that he chewed the pop tart into the shape of a gun Sam. What is absurd is that he was suspended for his pop tart shaped gun.

I think you missed the point made in the citation: the hearing examiner affirmed that the child was not suspended for a Pop-Tart shaped gun but rather for continuing behavioral disruptions. The examiner also noted that this was not the result of a zero-tolerance policy but rather the "last resort" in a series of efforts made.

So the argument (legend, at this point, really) that the kid was suspended for a gun-shaped Pop-Tart doesn't account for the facts of the matter. And you can't contrast it with this case, where the kid had no behavioral issues and no apparent "priors".

[Adrift]

intentionally

Yes.

without providing any substantial evidence for that claim.

What you consider substantial, and what I consider substantial are obviously two different things. I provided evidence in post #348. I provided a picture of what a movie bomb looks like. I provided a video that shows what Ahmed's case clock looks like. They look very similar. That video also points out that all Ahmed did was remove the casing of a particular clock, and put the components of that clock into a case. He did not invent anything. He did not craft a clock out of spare parts. All he did was place the internals of a clock (which I provided a photo of) into the case. This bit of evidence tells me that this isn't some sort of genius science project as early news sources and even the White House seemed to be indicating. Based on this one example he isn't some sort of misunderstood whizkid. I also provided evidence of the sort of shenanigans that teens can get into when they do something simply because it looks cool.

From my point of view, I don't understand why you think it's appropriate to assume that intention.

Because it looks like a bomb, Sam. The type of bomb you ordinarily see in movies. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Have you never seen a movie with this sort of bomb before? You don't think there's any similarity at all? Is it even within the realm of plausibility that this kid intentionally created something that looked like a bomb to you?

A person who makes a fake bomb and then takes it to school has a malicious or mischievous intent.

No. They don't. I don't know why you keep thinking this. Kids do all sorts of dumb things. I knew kids who brought in handcuffs and knives to class. They weren't planning on actually handcuffing or knifing anyone. They just thought it looked cool and wanted to show it off.

I can't think of any situation where a person thinks "I'm going to make a fake bomb with a working clock and show it off at school" without there being at least mischief in mind.

Then you had a very unimaginative childhood I suppose. Where I grew up this wouldn't have been far out thinking.

But the maliciousness or mischievousness of the intent is secondary; you're accusing this kid of intending something with no evidence to back that accusation up apart from saying that it (A) sort-of resembles a made-for-TV suitcase bomb and (B) 14 year-olds are generally troublemakers/dumb. You can't see how that's causing a reaction?

That's great evidence Sam.

Dude, I'm literally sitting here shaking my head like "What!??" I'm not exaggerating when I tell you that I sincerely and honestly don't get how you can't get this. Really I don't. It defies all comprehension and logic to me. I feel like I'm in Bizarroland or something.

You know, this isn't really an issue that I really care that much about. Believe whatever you want to believe. I don't think it makes any sense, but I got no agenda to sell, and I'm not going to lose any sleep if I don't convince you otherwise. Again, the whole thing is completely weird and ridiculous to me. So, you know, whatever. I'm out.

[rogue06]

I think you missed the point made in the citation: the hearing examiner affirmed that the child was not suspended for a Pop-Tart shaped gun but rather for continuing behavioral disruptions. The examiner also noted that this was not the result of a zero-tolerance policy but rather the "last resort" in a series of efforts made.

So the argument (legend, at this point, really) that the kid was suspended for a gun-shaped Pop-Tart doesn't account for the facts of the matter. And you can't contrast it with this case, where the kid had no behavioral issues and no apparent "priors".

Actually he was suspended for the pop tart gun. School officials sent a letter home to his parents saying that he had been "removed from the classroom" for making "inappropriate gestures that disrupted the class." Waving around the pop tart shaped gun.

Further they specifically cited the Sandy Hook shooting as justification.

After public pressure mounted after his parents appeared on several TV news shows his suspension was justified as being because he was a "problem child," but AFAICT this was never cited in his original suspension. It was because of the pop tart.

Moreover around the same time, also in Maryland, a first grader was suspended for pointing his finger and saying "Pow" and two other first graders were suspended for playing cops and robbers in which they were pointing their fingers like imaginary guns.

In neither of these cases were the suspended first graders described as being discipline problems but rather were being disciplined for pointing their fingers like imaginary firearms. It seems like this was the standard response in Maryland schools in the weeks following Sandy Hook.

[klaus54]

As an aside, I noticed that Obama never invited any other child to the White House after they were the victims of over zealous zero-tolerance laws. Like the second grader who was recently suspended for nibbling on a Pop Tart until it resembled a gun. The school refused to relent and he was suspended for a few days.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9894[/ATTACH]

Or around the same time a kid wrote a story about traveling through time and killing a dinosaur and was suspended because in the story he used a gun.

But neither of them were arrested you say.

Then how about the incident in the county where I live where a High Schooler known to be an avid fisherman was arrested after a random search of vehicles a small fishing knife was found in the tackle box kept in the kid's truck. Some accounts say that the truck wasn't even on school property but was adjacent to it. I used to work less than a quarter mile away from that school and if where these reports say he was parked are accurate he definitely was not on school property. The student was forced to make bail and news of the incident caused several state legislators to call for an examination of zero tolerance laws.

And speaking of off school property, three Middle Schoolers in Virginia were expelled for a year for the crime of playing with airsoft guns "near" -- as in over 70 yards/64 meters away from -- a school bus stop, on the front lawn of one of the boys. By all accounts they were shooting at anyone including each other, or even aiming it at anybody. They were using a tree for a target. While they weren't arrested police were called in to investigate. FWIU school officials eventually relented under community pressure and eventually allowed them to return.

Finally up in New York they seem to be in the habit of arresting students for doodling. In 2007 a 13-year-old wrote "Okay" on her desk and police handcuffed and arrested her for it. In the same school over a dozen students were arrested for putting stickers on walls. In 2010 a 12-year-old girl was also arrested and led out of school in handcuffs for writing "I love my friends Abby and Faith. Lex was here 2/1/10" in green marker on her desk. She missed three days of school due to her arrest.

None of them were Muslims.

It really makes all the difference to BHO.

[Sam]

Actually he was suspended for the pop tart gun. School officials sent a letter home to his parents saying that he had been "removed from the classroom" for making "inappropriate gestures that disrupted the class." Waving around the pop tart shaped gun.

Further they specifically cited the Sandy Hook shooting as justification.

After public pressure mounted after his parents appeared on several TV news shows his suspension was justified as being because he was a "problem child," but AFAICT this was never cited in his original suspension. It was because of the pop tart.

Moreover around the same time, also in Maryland, a first grader was suspended for pointing his finger and saying "Pow" and two other first graders were suspended for playing cops and robbers in which they were pointing their fingers like imaginary guns.

In neither of these cases were the suspended first graders described as being discipline problems but rather were being disciplined for pointing their fingers like imaginary firearms. It seems like this was the standard response in Maryland schools in the weeks following Sandy Hook.

The child's behavior that day involved the Pop-Tart but the school's response (and the school did not cite Sandy Hook as a justification

[klaus54]

You know what my guess is? He went scrounging around a junk shop, took apart an old clock, found some scrap parts, and rebuilt a similar device in the casing of a pencil board. Its kind of a smart way to do the project. He more or less built off a model without intending for it to look like a bomb. but people are dumb enough to go crazy and run three miles with it.

Thank you so much.

[Sam]

Yes.



What you consider substantial, and what I consider substantial are obviously two different things. I provided evidence in post #348. I provided a picture of what a movie bomb looks like. I provided a video that shows what Ahmed's case clock looks like. They look very similar. That video also points out that all Ahmed did was remove the casing of a particular clock, and put the components of that clock into a case. He did not invent anything. He did not craft a clock out of spare parts. All he did was place the internals of a clock (which I provided a photo of) into the case. This bit of evidence tells me that this isn't some sort of genius science project as early news sources and even the White House seemed to be indicating. Based on this one example he isn't some sort of misunderstood whizkid. I also provided evidence of the sort of shenanigans that teens can get into when they do something simply because it looks cool.

I haven't seen anyone arguing that this was a work of electrical genius. It doesn't have to be; the kid's 14 years old and he's developing skills in electrical engineering. That's commendable. Disassembly and reassembly are commendable projects for kids starting out in electrical engineering. I didn't watch the video you posted but at least some of those components appear to be independent of any disassembly. Regardless, this is once again knocking the kid because his project wasn't awesomethis kid intended to make a fake bomb clock. What you've done is project your adolescent experience as a general rule for all adolescents.

Because it looks like a bomb, Sam. The type of bomb you ordinarily see in movies. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Have you never seen a movie with this sort of bomb before? You don't think there's any similarity at all? Is it even within the realm of plausibility that this kid intentionally created something that looked like a bomb to you?

Possibility? Yes. Plausibility? Not remotely. It looks like clock components in a case. Any clock components in virtually any case is going to look like a bomb from some movie. That's woefully insufficient to confidently claim that this kid intended to make a fake bomb and bring it to school. It's terrible logic and you've got to be able to step away from the perspective of "Well, that looks like a movie bomb to me" and realize that you're taking a very big leap in accusing someone of that intention and, indeed, arguing against the evidence that we have readily available. A kid doesn't make a fake bomb and then go and show that to his teacher and then keep it in his backpack thereafter.

You're asking us to agree to a very implausible claim that you have no good evidence for other than "It looks like a bomb to me" and "Kids do dumb things". The latter is a non-sequitur; just because kids do dumb things in general does not mean in any sense that this kid did the dumb thing of setting out to bring a fake bomb to school. The former is just as weak: if a kid brings a backpack to school that looks remotely like the one used in the '96 Atlanta Olympics or the Boston bombing, does that mean the kid intended to bring a fake backpack bomb to school?

Several posters here have said that they looked at the picture and did not immediately think "Oh, that looks like a bomb." I don't think I can even parse this down any lower ... the premise is just self-evidently illogical. It's not great evidence, as you write. It's about the weakest evidence I could possibly think of, actually.

[tabibito]

Being a Muslim, here's my take on this kid and his homemade alarm clock. As always, my opinions are very unbiased. I look at things as they are. Not how I want them to be.

First of all, let me get one thing clear. I'm not saying Ahmed's arrest was justified. I'm just saying that I don't believe race or religion had anything to do with it.

It doesn't matter what race this kid was. Just look at this device! It scares me looking at it. This WASN'T even a school project. If out of nowhere, a kid brought something that looks like this to your kid's school, you know damn well that you would want the school to take the same precautions as they did with this Ahmed kid.

There is some important info people need to take into consideration before judging this as racism. First of all, Ahmed's engineering teacher at the school actually liked Ahmed's project and told him to keep it in his backpack. But then during his English class the device beeps in his backpack! When the English teacher sees the device, she panics and calls police. I don't blame her. Look at it!

Another important fact is that before arresting Ahmed, police questioned him as to what the device was and why he brought it to school. Ahmed did not tell the police what he told the media. He was very brief and abrupt with police. He would only tell them it's a clock he made and would not give any other explanation. He wouldn't even tell them why he brought it to school. He didn't tell them he brought it to school to impress his teacher. The only thing he kept saying to police is that it was a clock. He was very short with his answers. Kind of answering in an arrogant way. His attitude and short answers made him look suspicious. The police department even stated that if Ahmed would've explained to them what he explained to the media, then the outcome would've been different and he most likely wouldn't have been arrested.

I also believe that #IStandWithAhmed shouldn't be glorified for his actions. This kid isn't in elementary school. He's in high school. He knows better. Especially in this day and age. It doesn't take a genius to look at this thing and say, "Maybe I shouldn't take this to school to impress people because it looks just like a bomb."

If you disagree, then I dare you to walk into an airport or any public place with this "homemade" alarm clock and find out what happens to you. Race and color have absolutely nothing to do with this. This kid was asking to be arrested by being cocky, arrogant, and short with his answers to police when questioned at the school as to why he brought the device there. This is just another example of crying race when it's not appropriate to do so. I do believe there is #Islamaphobia in this country. This just wasn't an example of it. Again, I'm not saying Ahmed's arrest was justified. I'm just saying that I don't believe race or religion had anything to do with it.

Also, #Obama is a puss for tweeting about this just to be politically correct. You're the President! You don't have to feel the need to tweet a kid. Man up! If anything, tell kids not to do something so stupid!

All very well, particularly that last sentence.
However, there are procedures that are supposed to be followed when an unknown object is considered to be a potential bomb in which, in Australia at least, even commuter bus drivers are trained.
The first steps include evacuating people from the area that might be affected if the object does in fact prove to be a bomb. It may be that the school authorities didn't know those procedures, but a person could be forgiven for believing that surely the attending police would have.
So - the question arises whether the police ever formed the opinion that the object may have been a potential bomb.

[Cow Poke]

Several posters here have said that they looked at the picture and did not immediately think "Oh, that looks like a bomb." I don't think I can even parse this down any lower ... the premise is just self-evidently illogical. It's not great evidence, as you write. It's about the weakest evidence I could possibly think of, actually.

The "picture" is of the device AFTER THE FACT. There is no way to know what it actually looked like at the time, or if it was in the same state. Looking at a picture of an alligator or a picture of a shark doesn't scare me at all.

And, AGAIN, this is all second guessing, or hindsight, or Monday morning quarterbacking. YOU WEREN'T THERE, Sam... you don't know what was actually said, or what body language was employed, or what the entire conversation with either teacher was.

[Cow Poke]

I'm being neither histrionic or irrational.

Yuh. OK, so much for that.

[Cow Poke]

Everything you have said so far has absolutely no evidence backing it up. For you, this is about politics;

Exactly how would this be "politics"?

[Cow Poke]

Everything you have said so far has absolutely no evidence backing it up. For you, this is about politics; those nasty left-wing commies that you can't stand. You've been bringing up past happening that are totally unrelated to this and hoping like hell, that maybe some story will come along that confirms your unfounded beliefs. All you've got is an opinion that unfortunately for you, is not backed up in facts.

It's a shame. You're normally a calm guy away from this political stuff. But the moment you perceive a story that you feel puts you up against liberal people, you go into this fully loaded assault, without taking the time to listen to your opponents.

^
A beautiful projection, Sea of Red.



See? Anybody can play that game.

[Sam]

The "picture" is of the device AFTER THE FACT. There is no way to know what it actually looked like at the time, or if it was in the same state. Looking at a picture of an alligator or a picture of a shark doesn't scare me at all.

And, AGAIN, this is all second guessing, or hindsight, or Monday morning quarterbacking. YOU WEREN'T THERE, Sam... you don't know what was actually said, or what body language was employed, or what the entire conversation with either teacher was.

There aren't too many ways to make that clock look different, Cow Poke. And you're the one confidently asserting that this kid intended to make a hoax bomb "to get attention". If you had stayed in the realm of "the teacher's initial response was appropriate", we wouldn't have had any disagreement. If you had stayed in the realm of "the police officers' initial response was appropriate", we would have clearly disagreed but it would be a rational disagreement. But you snarked about the build quality of the kid's project and then joined Adrift in arguing that the kid had intended to make something that looks like a bomb.

So if you're going to argue against speculating, based on the fact that we weren't there, you've got to retract what you've said regarding the kid's intentions.

And this is the "briefcase" that the kid was using ... it's a pencil box.

81HNQ5xlE9L._SL1200_.jpg

[Cow Poke]

There aren't too many ways to make that clock look different, Cow Poke.

I don't know if you've ever noticed, Sam, but clocks have their displays on the OUTSIDE where it makes sense, cause it makes them look... well... like a CLOCK. It's dumb to build a "clock" and put the display on the INSIDE where the user is exposed to the electrical current and components. That's just dumb.

And you're the one confidently asserting that this kid intended to make a hoax bomb "to get attention".

I believe I have said that "hoax bomb" is a LEGAL term, and I don't think that's what the kid was intending. He was building what, in effect, was a "hollywood bomb", or "movie bomb".

If you had stayed in the realm of "the teacher's initial response was appropriate", we wouldn't have had any disagreement. If you had stayed in the realm of "the police officers' initial response was appropriate", we would have clearly disagreed but it would be a rational disagreement. But you snarked

Oh, for crying out loud, Sam, stop being such a drama queen. Snark, indeed!

about the build quality of the kid's project and then joined Adrift in arguing that the kid had intended to make something that looks like a bomb.

I gave my honest opinion, and you turn it into "snark". Grow up.

so if you're going to argue against speculating, based on the fact that we weren't there, you've got to retract what you've said regarding the kid's intentions.

I'm basing my opinion on the OVERALL incident, not pretending that the cops and school officials are a bunch of liars or idiots.

And this is the "briefcase" that the kid was using ... it's a pencil box.

I have referred to it NUMEROUS times as a "pencil box" or "pencil case", Sam. That kinda proves you're not even reading what I say. As soon as somebody else pointed out the size of the case related to the electrical plug (a great observation) I saw where it was referred to as a "pencil box", and have been referring to it as such.

From LAST NIGHT....

As I stated earlier, you COULD use a little common sense and let your kids' teacher know he's bringing a rather unusual item to school (you DO agree that not every kid carries a kludgy homemade clock to school in a metal pencil case, right?)....

Glad you finally caught up with that. (that was a snark )

[Sea of red]

As an aside, I noticed that Obama never invited any other child to the White House after they were the victims of over zealous zero-tolerance laws. Like the second grader who was recently suspended for nibbling on a Pop Tart until it resembled a gun. The school refused to relent and he was suspended for a few days.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]9894[/ATTACH]

Or around the same time a kid wrote a story about traveling through time and killing a dinosaur and was suspended because in the story he used a gun.

But neither of them were arrested you say.

Then how about the incident in the county where I live where a High Schooler known to be an avid fisherman was arrested after a random search of vehicles a small fishing knife was found in the tackle box kept in the kid's truck. Some accounts say that the truck wasn't even on school property but was adjacent to it. I used to work less than a quarter mile away from that school and if where these reports say he was parked are accurate he definitely was not on school property. The student was forced to make bail and news of the incident caused several state legislators to call for an examination of zero tolerance laws.

And speaking of off school property, three Middle Schoolers in Virginia were expelled for a year for the crime of playing with airsoft guns "near" -- as in over 70 yards/64 meters away from -- a school bus stop, on the front lawn of one of the boys. By all accounts they were shooting at anyone including each other, or even aiming it at anybody. They were using a tree for a target. While they weren't arrested police were called in to investigate. FWIU school officials eventually relented under community pressure and eventually allowed them to return.

Finally up in New York they seem to be in the habit of arresting students for doodling. In 2007 a 13-year-old wrote "Okay" on her desk and police handcuffed and arrested her for it. In the same school over a dozen students were arrested for putting stickers on walls. In 2010 a 12-year-old girl was also arrested and led out of school in handcuffs for writing "I love my friends Abby and Faith. Lex was here 2/1/10" in green marker on her desk. She missed three days of school due to her arrest.

Do you not know who was president then?

Man.