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Pentecost: The Parakletos

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  • Pentecost
    replied
    Originally posted by apostoli View Post
    Hello Pentecost,

    Just providing a bit of "friendly" fire. Please feel free to return fire :-}

    Hmmm! I had in mind what Jesus promised at John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15. these texts directly refer to the Parakletos whom Jesus would ask his Father to send, and whom Jesus would onforward. Jesus declared the Parakletos the Holy Spirit whom the Father would send in his name to teach the disciples all things, and bring all things to their remembrance (John 14:26).

    On the basis of John 14:26, I find your appeal to John 20:21 as a response to my question a bit of a worry. Especially given vs22-23 "So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained".

    Hmmm! I think I can understand why you pointed to John 20:21, especially given the preaching and nurturing roles of the disciples, but I am unaware of the Parakletos having the role of arbitrary judgement as Jesus granted the disciples (vs23 - a topic for another thread). A major defect is that while the disciples were in similitude to Jesus in as much as they were sent into the world, the disciples were not sent by the Father as Jesus said would happen with the Parakletos, but directly by Jesus without the Father's direct participation (cp. John 17:18). Another major defect is that unlike the disciples, the Parakletos was not sent into the world, but was sent to the disciples and those who would come to believe in Jesus through the disciples preaching activity (cp. John 14:16-17; 17:20).

    You might think I am being pedantic, but I consider attention to detail essential in revealing the truth (cp. John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free").

    Hmmm! Your answer to my first question via John 20:21 makes me wonder.

    The disciples were definitely a group of hypostases (people), but the Parakletos is a unique hypostasis (person). So instead of giving an affirmative answer in the singular as is required, by referring to the disciples, your answer was plural, so you actually avoided the question. Same problem with your implied response to the second part of the question.

    Pedantry aside: Whether or not the disciples were transient prosopa is questionable given "[God] is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." (cp. Luke 20:38). I'll have to work on the second part of the question, as it stands it can be affirmed by reference to anyone who has secured salvation.
    Oh Brother! I think perhaps there was a misunderstanding here that was my fault! I was searching for just the sort of texts you mentioned from chapters 14-16 and falsely remembered one of them to be in chapter 20, and in haste I used it without having double checked its contents. I am laughing at my foolishness, I see from your response that my mistake at least had plausibility.

    But to be clear, I did not mean that the apostles nor their successors are/were the Paraclete. I was hasty and unthoughtful as I snatched for a proof text to demonstrate my orthodoxy (which if I meant what I said, would have only proven my heterodoxy!)

    The Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, proceeds from the Father, and was sent by the Son. He is coequal, and coeternal with the Father and Son. There is one God, and three Persons.

    It is good that you pushed on me here, because I said an untruth, but I made much work for you unintentionally. I hope you gained pleasure from the thought exercise.

    You said the matter of Romans 9 was under the bridge, I am still willing to discuss that if you are. I was under the impression that the spirits mentioned were all the same Spirit, and you seemed to disagree.

    Leave a comment:


  • apostoli
    started a topic Pentecost: The Parakletos

    Pentecost: The Parakletos

    Hello Pentecost,

    Just providing a bit of "friendly" fire. Please feel free to return fire :-}

    Originally posted by Pentecost
    Originally posted by apostoli
    Do you believe that God through his Son has sent to us the Paraclete as Jesus promised?
    Yes. As per John 20:21
    Hmmm! I had in mind what Jesus promised at John 14:16-18, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15. these texts directly refer to the Parakletos whom Jesus would ask his Father to send, and whom Jesus would onforward. Jesus declared the Parakletos the Holy Spirit whom the Father would send in his name to teach the disciples all things, and bring all things to their remembrance (John 14:26).

    On the basis of John 14:26, I find your appeal to John 20:21 as a response to my question a bit of a worry. Especially given vs22-23 "So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained".

    Hmmm! I think I can understand why you pointed to John 20:21, especially given the preaching and nurturing roles of the disciples, but I am unaware of the Parakletos having the role of arbitrary judgement as Jesus granted the disciples (vs23 - a topic for another thread). A major defect is that while the disciples were in similitude to Jesus in as much as they were sent into the world, the disciples were not sent by the Father as Jesus said would happen with the Parakletos, but directly by Jesus without the Father's direct participation (cp. John 17:18). Another major defect is that unlike the disciples, the Parakletos was not sent into the world, but was sent to the disciples and those who would come to believe in Jesus through the disciples preaching activity (cp. John 14:16-17; 17:20).

    You might think I am being pedantic, but I consider attention to detail essential in revealing the truth (cp. John 8:32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free").

    Originally posted by Pentecost
    Originally posted by apostoli
    Do you accept that the Paraklete has a real and constant existence, is a real hypostasis as opposed to a transient prosopon?
    Of course I do.
    Hmmm! Your answer to my first question via John 20:21 makes me wonder.

    The disciples were definitely a group of hypostases (people), but the Parakletos is a unique hypostasis (person). So instead of giving an affirmative answer in the singular as is required, by referring to the disciples, your answer was plural, so you actually avoided the question. Same problem with your implied response to the second part of the question.

    Pedantry aside: Whether or not the disciples were transient prosopa is questionable given "[God] is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him." (cp. Luke 20:38). I'll have to work on the second part of the question, as it stands it can be affirmed by reference to anyone who has secured salvation.
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