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37818: Who resuuected Jesus?

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  • 37818: Who resuuected Jesus?

    Hello 37818,

    Response to your post #222 in the other thread (Derail from Orthodox Anathema Service on Christology )....

    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    A side point, who raised Jesus from the dead?

    God the Father: "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." -- Acts 13:33.

    Jesus Himself: "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. . . . _ . . . But he spake of the temple of his body." -- John 2:19, 21.

    The Holy Spirit: ". . . the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead . . ." -- Romans 8:11.

    Who raised Jesus from the dead? The Holy Trinity!
    Not according to scripture! Every verse, post resurrection, that directly refers to who caused Jesus' resurrection says that it was his Father that caused Jesus to rise from the dead.

    As a bit of speculation: If I ignore scripture I could speculate that God the Father sent the Holy Spirit to empower the Son, so that the Son could physiclly raise himself from the dead (this scenario fits with with the observation in my previous post that "the sender" always gets all the credit. Hence the majority witness in scripture that the Father raised Jesus from the dead).

    God the Father

    With few if any exception, "God" in the NT is exclusively used to refer to the Father of Jesus Christ, and he is exclusively attributed with the resurrection of his Son. (cp. 1 Peter 1:3 and all the scriptues listed below)

    Notice in Acts, Luke differentiates between God and the risen Christ, and says "[You] killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead" (Acts 3:15 cp. Acts 4:10; 13:30; 26:8). From the majority scriptural witness the authors of the epistles exclusively referred to the Father of Jesus Christ as God, and Jesus as Lord (cp. Rom 1:7; 1 Cor 1:3; Gal 1:1-3; Col 1:2-3; 1 Peter 1:2-3). A.Paul links belief that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead to our salvation - "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (cp. 1 Cor 15:15; 2 Cor 1:9; Gal 1:1; Col 2:12; Heb 13:20; 1 Peter 1:21).

    Also consider 1 Peter 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead".

    The Holy Spirit

    I really do wish you would pay attention to exactly what the inspired writers wrote, rather than edit them to fabricate the understanding you want.

    Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you". The spirit being spoken of here is the spirit of the Father, not the Holy Spirit. In Romans 8 they are two different things.

    Have a read of all of Romans 8, it talks of us having the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God (particularly contemplate vs9) plus a load of other spirits (flesh, adoption etc).

    Jesus Himself

    "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up...But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said" (John 2:19-22).

    Jesus made a few predictions that he would suffer, die and be resurrected (eg: Mt 16:21; 17:23; 20:19) but never had he told the disciples that he would directly cause any of these things to occur. Now, as we read the NT it becomes obvious that God the Father is exclusively the source, cause and direction of the resurrection. As A.Paul regularly states God [the Father] raised Jesus from the dead! The question arises: For what reason? The common answer is so that we could become sons by adoption and received the gift of eternal life.

    Speculatively, I can accept that Jesus raised himself from the dead, the problem is scripture doesn't provide any corroborating evidence! In fact the majority witness of scripture contradicts the idea.
    Last edited by apostoli; 07-21-2015, 09:20 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by apostoli View Post
    The Holy Spirit

    I really do wish you would pay attention to exactly what the inspired writers wrote, rather than edit them to fabricate the understanding you want.

    Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you". The spirit being spoken of here is the spirit of the Father, not the Holy Spirit. In Romans 8 they are two differentthings.

    Have a read of all of Romans 8, it talks of us having the Spirit, the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God (particularly contemplate vs9) plus a load of other spirits
    I think you're wrong here. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ, and is the Spirit of the Father, and the Spirit of Life (for our God is God of the living, and not the dead), the Spirit of adoption, these are all names/titles for the same person. I cannot understand how from a reading of Romans 8 you get many spirits particularly with verse 9 that gives up the ghost (pardon the pun) where it says that the Spirit of God is in us, and contrasts against those who don't have the Spirit of Christ; further verse 10 says the Spirit of Christ is in us. So then would we have more than one Spirit within us? Of course not. They are he same Spirit!

    “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
    **Ezekiel‬ *36:26-27‬ *ESV‬‬
    http://bible.com/59/ezk.36.26-27.esv

    Does Romans 8 plainly teach that the Father raised Christ from the dead? Yes it does. It also teaches that we believers will be raised from the dead by the spirit that dwells within us; commonly known as the Holy Spirit. The same Spirit that will raise us, has already raised Jesus, by the will of the Father. It is not wrong to say the Father raised the Son, but it is more accurate to say that the Father raised the Son by the Spirit.

    I agree with you that the Father caused the Resurrection, but He chose not to do it alone. I had to reply because unless I misunderstood you, you have a very strange pneumatology.
    Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
      I think you're wrong here. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ, and is the Spirit of the Father, and the Spirit of Life (for our God is God of the living, and not the dead), the Spirit of adoption, these are all names/titles for the same person. I cannot understand how from a reading of Romans 8 you get many spirits particularly with verse 9 that gives up the ghost (pardon the pun) where it says that the Spirit of God is in us, and contrasts against those who don't have the Spirit of Christ; further verse 10 says the Spirit of Christ is in us. So then would we have more than one Spirit within us? Of course not. They are he same Spirit!

      “And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
      **Ezekiel‬ *36:26-27‬ *ESV‬‬
      http://bible.com/59/ezk.36.26-27.esv

      Does Romans 8 plainly teach that the Father raised Christ from the dead? Yes it does. It also teaches that we believers will be raised from the dead by the spirit that dwells within us; commonly known as the Holy Spirit. The same Spirit that will raise us, has already raised Jesus, by the will of the Father. It is not wrong to say the Father raised the Son, but it is more accurate to say that the Father raised the Son by the Spirit.

      I agree with you that the Father caused the Resurrection, but He chose not to do it alone. I had to reply because unless I misunderstood you, you have a very strange pneumatology.
      Do you believe that God through his Son has sent to us the Paraclete as Jesus promised? Do you accept that the Paraklete has a real and constant existence, is a real hypostasis as opposed to a transient prosopon?

      I seek your response to these questions to give me an insight into your perspective concerning the Holy Spirit. I need an answer to these two questions before I am able to respond to your post. If you advocate a "Oneness" teaching then of course you will find my Nicene understanding of Romans 8 at odds with your understanding.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by apostoli View Post
        Do you believe that God through his Son has sent to us the Paraclete as Jesus promised?
        Yes. As per John 20:21
        Do you accept that the Paraklete has a real and constant existence, is a real hypostasis as opposed to a transient prosopon?
        Of course I do.

        I seek your response to these questions to give me an insight into your perspective concerning the Holy Spirit. I need an answer to these two questions before I am able to respond to your post. If you advocate a "Oneness" teaching then of course you will find my Nicene understanding of Romans 8 at odds with your understanding.
        Yes, of course if I was a Oneness heretic then I would not understand, but they do not. My beliefs conform to not only the Nicene Creed, but even the Athanasian creed.
        Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

        Comment


        • #5
          Quick clarification, there was a time that I thought 37818 held views compatible with orthodox Christianity, but in his further attempts to explain himself he is condemning himself, I support you apostoli in your conversation with him, but I found your claims in this thread to be contrary to what seems to me to be an obvious reading of Scripture (which I think we both hold very highly), and so I contested your claim, I am genuinely curious as to why we seem to have a disagreement on this chapter.
          Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Pentecost View Post
            Quick clarification, there was a time that I thought 37818 held views compatible with orthodox Christianity, but in his further attempts to explain himself he is condemning himself, I support you apostoli in your conversation with him, but I found your claims in this thread to be contrary to what seems to me to be an obvious reading of Scripture (which I think we both hold very highly), and so I contested your claim, I am genuinely curious as to why we seem to have a disagreement on this chapter.
            And I thank you for challenging what I wrote to 37818, I need the mental stimulus, and if my perspective is found to be way off base, I deserve to be corrected and put back on track. That is what loving Christian brothers are suppose to do. Isn't it?

            Maybe you misunderstood my post to 37818, or maybe I was just careless in my wording. It is water under the bridge, but your post did wake me from a slumber I had fallen into. So as a remedial exercise I've embarked on a study of Romans 8 and its use of the word "πνεῦμα" (spirit), the beginnings of which I've posted on a new thread called "37818: Romans 8:1-16"

            I noticed 37818 "amen'd" your previous post. Over the years in my discussions with 37818 he keeps on rehashing the same things, and like a fool I keep answering him with pretty well the same answers. I have let him get away with it because he often raises multiple issues/questions in the one post, and I had been answering him according to his order. Silly me!!! This time around, whenever 37818 revisits or raises a new topic/issue/question I intend to open a new thread. The intention is that when he attempts to repeat himself and put us into a loop, I'll just refer or defer to the appropriate thread. Fingers crossed...
            Last edited by apostoli; 07-25-2015, 09:45 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by apostoli View Post
              And I thank you for challenging what I wrote to 37818, I need the mental stimulus, and if my perspective is found to be way off base, I deserve to be corrected and put back on track. That is what loving Christian brothers are suppose to do. Isn't it?
              Brother, at first I read this sarcastically and was very surprised, but now I see your earnestness.

              Maybe you misunderstood my post to 37818, or maybe I was just careless in my wording. It is water under the bridge, but your post did wake me from a slumber I had fallen into. So as a remedial exercise I've embarked on a study of Romans 8 and its use of the word "πνεῦμα" (spirit), the beginnings of which I've posted on a new thread called "37818: Romans 8:1-16"
              I have glanced at the thread and it appears you go more indepth than I have learning for, but I will (likely tomorrow) take the time to go through it to be sure I have not mis-stated any of my beliefs and that I do understand what you are saying

              I noticed 37818 "amen'd" your previous post. Over the years in my discussions with 37818 he keeps on rehashing the same things, and like a fool I keep answering him with pretty well the same answers. I have let him get away with it because he often raises multiple issues/questions in the one post, and I had been answering him according to his order. Silly me!!! This time around, whenever 37818 revisits or raises a new topic/issue/question I intend to open a new thread. The intention is that when he attempts to repeat himself and put us into a loop, I'll just refer or defer to the appropriate thread. Fingers crossed...
              It seems a reasonable way to go about things.
              Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? -Galatians 3:5

              Comment

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