Announcement

Collapse

Unorthodox Theology 201 Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.

The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."

The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Derail from Orthodox Anathema Service on Christology

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The uncaused existence is the identity of God. Only uncaused existence is truely self existent. God's Hebrew Name can be translated as "Self-Existent." Uncaused cause is different from uncaused existence in that existence and cause are two different things. Uncaused cause is also two different things in and of itself. Uncaused being eternal and a cause always finite, limiting and temporal. Uncaused cause being both. The uncaused cause is one with the uncaused existence in that they are one uncaused existence to be uncaused. One uncaused essence. Uncaused essence, essence being a third entity making them three entities being one entity (John 4:24).
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      The uncaused existence is the identity of God. Only uncaused existence is truely self existent. God's Hebrew Name can be translated as "Self-Existent." Uncaused cause is different from uncaused existence in that existence and cause are two different things. Uncaused cause is also two different things in and of itself. Uncaused being eternal and a cause always finite, limiting and temporal. Uncaused cause being both. The uncaused cause is one with the uncaused existence in that they are one uncaused existence to be uncaused. One uncaused essence. Uncaused essence, essence being a third entity making them three entities being one entity (John 4:24).
      Yes, I remember you've said this. But I'm not really sure how these three concepts, on a broad level, are incompatible with the usual Christian proclamation. You speak of uncaused existence, uncaused cause and uncaused essence. I think God the Father is usually understood to be all of these, with the Son and the Spirit finding their source in the Father in their own special ways. I agree the Son works as the temporal cause of reality, but I still think he is caused (in an atemporal, "eternal light from an eternal source" way) by the Father. So it's Son and Spirit who share the Father's divine essence, rather than all three separately having a characteristic in common (what "uncaused" would be somehow, according to you) and then calling that characteristic their common essence (something that, as others have previously said, may remind one more of tritheism than triunity).

      I expect you to consider the previous posts though. Do we still need to look up the Wisdom passages in detail to show the parallels with the Son? You could also just read JPH's article on this topic if you haven't already, and give your opinion on it.
      We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
      - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
      In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
      Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

      Comment


      • God is not three Gods in my view. To assert my explanation is in any way tritheist is false accusation.

        There is only one self existent Who Is God.
        The uncaused cause is the Logos of God (John 1:3).
        And God is Spirit (John 4:24). All three Persons who are God are the one self existent and spirit being God.

        More later.
        . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

        . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

        Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

        Comment


        • Regarding wisdom as cited in the Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach 1:4, 8-9, ". . . Wisdom hath been created before all things, . . . . . There is one wise and greatly to be feared, the Lord sitting upon his throne. He created her, and saw her, and numbered her, and poured her out upon all his works. . . ." At the very least this shows the Jews regarded the spirit of wisdom a creation of God.

          Now again, ". . . For she is the brightness of the everlasting light, the unspotted mirror of the power of God, and the image of his goodness. . . ." -- Book of Wisdom.

          In contrast the preincarnate Christ the Logos is the "true light" (John 1:9) which accounts for Him being "the brightness of glory" (Hebrews 1:3). Even as God is the only true God (John 17:3). And that God's Logos created all things (John 1:3). The trinity explanation is to be understood in this.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • I know you are not a tritheist nor claim to be one, and I do not accuse you of being one. However, so far I am not convinced by your way of connecting and differentiating Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

            For instance, in your post #258, I get the impression of Father and Spirit being the same entity without differentiation, except for the fact that you call them two of three Persons. This reminded me of Unitarianism. While in your previous one (#256) I got the impression that they are three entities, each with its own characterization, who only share the fact that they are all "uncaused" (therefore, eternal?). This reminded me of tritheism.

            Again, I am not stating that you see it as either unitarianism nor tritheism. Instead, I personally find your explanations confusing, and sometimes leaning towards those.



            Now, about post #259.

            Indeed, Wisdom gets called "created" there. Still, that very passage adds bits that apparently want to show her "creation" was before Creation and time itself (1:4, "before all things... from everlasting"), in line with what Scripture had previously said about Wisdom (i.e. Prov. 8). Besides, this is God's very Wisdom we (and they) are talking about; He is and always was wise, just as we would affirm He is and always was Father.

            You may think that for Jews, calling Wisdom "created" somehow made her a part of Creation instead of "a part" of God. Let me quote Mr. Bauckham on this little bit:

            "Mediator" figures: Personified or unified divine aspects

            The second category of mediator figures, aspects of God that are personified or unified, turns out to be, by the same criteria, very different. Both the Word and the Wisdom of God take part in Creation, ocassionally with very distinguishable roles[35], sometimes interchangeable[36]. The texts in question leave it very clear that they are not infringing the standard monotheistic insistence that God created without any kind of help[37]. II Enoch 33:4, echoing Deutero-Isaiah (Isaiah 40:13)[38], says that God had no advisor at Creation, but that his Wisdom was his advisor. The meaning is clearly that God had nobody to advise him. His Wisdom, who is no one, but an quality intrinsic to his own identity, advised him. In a similar way, his Wisdom is described as sitting on the great throne next to God, partaking in the exercise of his sovereignty by adopting the role of the king's counselor (I Enoch 84:2, 3; Wisdom 9:4, 10). Here the image that literature abstains from applying to any angelical servant of God is applied to Wisdom, without this going in detriment to the clear distinction between God and the rest of reality, precisely because this symbol serves to include Wisdom in the unique identity of the God who rules the Cosmos frmo his exalted one throne. Generally, the personifications of the Word of God and the Wisdom of God in literature are not parallel with the descriptions of exalted angels as servants of God. The personifications have been developed precisely from ideas of God's own Wisdom and Word, that is, aspects of God's own identity. They express God in different forms, his mind and his will, in relation to the world. They are not created beings, but they are not semi-divine entities taking an ambiguous place between God and the rest of reality. They belong to the one divine identity.

            My conclusion that the Word and the Wisdom of God are intrinsic to the one divine identity, as is understood in Jewish Monotheism, does not decide the matter (which, in my opinion, must be secondary) of whether the personification of these figures in literature is merely a literary resource or if they are conceived as having some form of distinctive existence, in reality. I believe there exists a good argument for this last one, at least in some texts about Wisdom (for example, Wisdom 7.22-8.1), but this does not mean that Wisdom is conceived as a subordinate divine being intrinsic to the identity of the one God. It means that these Jewish writers conceived some form of real distinction within the one identity of the one God. If it is thus, they are not abandoning, or in any case compromising their Jewish Monotheism. Second Temple Jewish understanding about the divine unicity does not define him as unitarian and does not make distinctions within the divine identity to be inconceivable. Their perfectly clear distinction between God and external reality is made in other terms that, in this case, place the Wisdom of God unequivocally within the one divine identity.

            ---
            Footnotes:
            [35] Ps. 33:9; IV Ezra 6:38; II Bar. 56:3-4; II Enoch 33:4.
            [36] Wisdom: Jer. 10:12, 51:15; Ps. 104:24; Prov. 3:19; 8:30; Sir. 24:3b, Wisdom 7:22; 8:4-6; cf. 1QH 9:7, 14, 20; Wisdom 9:2.
            Word: Ps. 33:6; Sir. 42:15; Jub. 12:4; Sibiline Oracles 3:20; II Bar. 14:17; 21:4; 48:8; IV Ezra 6:38; T. Abr. A9:6; Wisdom 9:1.
            [37] Isaiah 44:24; II Enoch 33:4, IV Ezra 3:4; Josephus C. Apocalypse 2.192.
            [38] cf. Sir. 42:21; I Enoch 14:22; Wisdom 9:13, 17; 1QS 11:18, 19.

            Source: Richard Bauckham, "God Crucified: Monotheism and Christology in the NT", p.30-31 (Spanish version)
            (I don't know how you guys quote using a gray square that can have the title above it )

            And again, I think that equating this "Wisdom of God/YHWH" character with the "spirit of wisdom" sometimes mentioned in Scripture (who more resembles a quality or gift than a person when it appears) is pretty much unwarranted, for the reasons I previously mentioned (post #254).

            Finally, in your last two paragraphs, I don't see what is your point. You quote what is said of Wisdom and of Christ. Do you intend to show both descriptions as essentially different? Because to mee they are easily recognisable parallels, even if there weren't any word choices linking both characters like the unusual "apaugasma". And that passage also calls Wisdom the "image" (eikon) of God's goodness, like Philo would also say (Wisdom as God's image/eikon)... and just like Jesus is called the "image" of God in Col 1:15. (Not to mention "firstborn" in that Colossians verse...)
            Last edited by Bisto; 05-03-2016, 09:56 PM.
            We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
            - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
            In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
            Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bisto View Post
              I know you are not a tritheist nor claim to be one, and I do not accuse you of being one. However, so far I am not convinced by your way of connecting and differentiating Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

              For instance, in your post #258, I get the impression of Father and Spirit being the same entity without differentiation, except for the fact that you call them two of three Persons. This reminded me of Unitarianism. While in your previous one (#256) I got the impression that they are three entities, each with its own characterization, who only share the fact that they are all "uncaused" (therefore, eternal?). This reminded me of tritheism.

              Again, I am not stating that you see it as either unitarianism nor tritheism. Instead, I personally find your explanations confusing, and sometimes leaning towards those.
              We agree that there is one God and three Persons who are that God. Are the persons God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit without beginning? Yes. Do you not see to hold the view that the Son of God was eternally begotten is to argue that th eternal Son of God, without a beginning, nevertheless was caused?
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bisto View Post

                Now, about post #259.

                Indeed, Wisdom gets called "created" there. Still, that very passage adds bits that apparently want to show her "creation" was before Creation and time itself (1:4, "before all things... from everlasting"), in line with what Scripture had previously said about Wisdom (i.e. Prov. 8). Besides, this is God's very Wisdom we (and they) are talking about; He is and always was wise, just as we would affirm He is and always was Father.

                You may think that for Jews, calling Wisdom "created" somehow made her a part of Creation instead of "a part" of God. Let me quote Mr. Bauckham on this little bit:

                "Mediator" figures: Personified or unified divine aspects

                The second category of mediator figures, aspects of God that are personified or unified, turns out to be, by the same criteria, very different. Both the Word and the Wisdom of God take part in Creation, ocassionally with very distinguishable roles[35], sometimes interchangeable[36]. The texts in question leave it very clear that they are not infringing the standard monotheistic insistence that God created without any kind of help[37]. II Enoch 33:4, echoing Deutero-Isaiah (Isaiah 40:13)[38], says that God had no advisor at Creation, but that his Wisdom was his advisor. The meaning is clearly that God had nobody to advise him. His Wisdom, who is no one, but an quality intrinsic to his own identity, advised him. In a similar way, his Wisdom is described as sitting on the great throne next to God, partaking in the exercise of his sovereignty by adopting the role of the king's counselor (I Enoch 84:2, 3; Wisdom 9:4, 10). Here the image that literature abstains from applying to any angelical servant of God is applied to Wisdom, without this going in detriment to the clear distinction between God and the rest of reality, precisely because this symbol serves to include Wisdom in the unique identity of the God who rules the Cosmos frmo his exalted one throne. Generally, the personifications of the Word of God and the Wisdom of God in literature are not parallel with the descriptions of exalted angels as servants of God. The personifications have been developed precisely from ideas of God's own Wisdom and Word, that is, aspects of God's own identity. They express God in different forms, his mind and his will, in relation to the world. They are not created beings, but they are not semi-divine entities taking an ambiguous place between God and the rest of reality. They belong to the one divine identity.

                My conclusion that the Word and the Wisdom of God are intrinsic to the one divine identity, as is understood in Jewish Monotheism, does not decide the matter (which, in my opinion, must be secondary) of whether the personification of these figures in literature is merely a literary resource or if they are conceived as having some form of distinctive existence, in reality. I believe there exists a good argument for this last one, at least in some texts about Wisdom (for example, Wisdom 7.22-8.1), but this does not mean that Wisdom is conceived as a subordinate divine being intrinsic to the identity of the one God. It means that these Jewish writers conceived some form of real distinction within the one identity of the one God. If it is thus, they are not abandoning, or in any case compromising their Jewish Monotheism. Second Temple Jewish understanding about the divine unicity does not define him as unitarian and does not make distinctions within the divine identity to be inconceivable. Their perfectly clear distinction between God and external reality is made in other terms that, in this case, place the Wisdom of God unequivocally within the one divine identity.

                ---
                Footnotes:
                [35] Ps. 33:9; IV Ezra 6:38; II Bar. 56:3-4; II Enoch 33:4.
                [36] Wisdom: Jer. 10:12, 51:15; Ps. 104:24; Prov. 3:19; 8:30; Sir. 24:3b, Wisdom 7:22; 8:4-6; cf. 1QH 9:7, 14, 20; Wisdom 9:2.
                Word: Ps. 33:6; Sir. 42:15; Jub. 12:4; Sibiline Oracles 3:20; II Bar. 14:17; 21:4; 48:8; IV Ezra 6:38; T. Abr. A9:6; Wisdom 9:1.
                [37] Isaiah 44:24; II Enoch 33:4, IV Ezra 3:4; Josephus C. Apocalypse 2.192.
                [38] cf. Sir. 42:21; I Enoch 14:22; Wisdom 9:13, 17; 1QS 11:18, 19.

                Source: Richard Bauckham, "God Crucified: Monotheism and Christology in the NT", p.30-31 (Spanish version)
                A few things to note.
                The Book of Wisdom and the Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach, even given what is said in them to be true. They are not God-breathed holy scriptures.

                Proverbs 8:22, wisdom says she is a possession of the LORD, indicating that spirit of wisdom is someone who is not the LORD God. Which if the spirit of wisdom is the preincarnate Logos would affirm having a nature other than being God (being both with God and was God).

                And most important is the Logos identity as God the uncaused cause in that nothing that was made was made without Him (John 1:3). The Logos is the LORD God Creator. Through whom God the Father created all things.



                (I don't know how you guys quote using a gray square that can have the title above it )
                Just for reference I used above the BOX /BOX instruction. There also the CITE="" /CITE instruction of a citation and then there is now also a VERSE= /VERSE citation option.
                Code:
                |BOX| Your text here. |/BOX|
                |CITE="Name of source here"|The citation from the source here|/CITE|
                [VERSE=Bible Reference]Scripture verse here.|/VERSE|
                | | |/ | = [  ] [/ ]



                And again, I think that equating this "Wisdom of God/YHWH" character with the "spirit of wisdom" sometimes mentioned in Scripture (who more resembles a quality or gift than a person when it appears) is pretty much unwarranted, for the reasons I previously mentioned (post #254).

                Finally, in your last two paragraphs, I don't see what is your point. You quote what is said of Wisdom and of Christ. Do you intend to show both descriptions as essentially different? Because to me they are easily recognisable parallels, even if there weren't any word choices linking both characters like the unusual "apaugasma". And that passage also calls Wisdom the "image" (eikon) of God's goodness, like Philo would also say (Wisdom as God's image/eikon)... and just like Jesus is called the "image" of God in Col 1:15. (Not to mention "firstborn" in that Colossians verse...)
                Being the image of God's goodness and being the very image of God (Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:15) are two different things as I understand this.
                Now regarding Christ being the "firstborn" (Colossians 1:15) this has to do with His incarnation and resurrection (Colossians 1:15; Romans 8:21-22; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:5; Romans 8:23, 29; 1 John 3:2).
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • Christ the Logos - http://www.trinityfoundation.org/PDF...LogosClark.pdf
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment

                  widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                  Working...
                  X