Announcement

Collapse

Unorthodox Theology 201 Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.

The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."

The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Immutability of God.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Rushing Jaws
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Moved: Immutability of God

    But that doesn't make any sense! Though, good luck trying to understand a Being that doesn't have human psychology.
    My cat probably doesn't understand me perfectly. I certainly don't understand her perfectly. Nor will I ever do so.

    Yet she and I are radically similar, because both of us are creatures. We are therefore far more alike than either of us is like God.

    But how can creatures, beings radically unlike God, expect to understand, and perfectly, the Creator God Whom they are so unlike ? ISTM that the real surprise is, that anything can be known of God at all.

    To understand God fully, we would need to know God as fully and completely as Christ does. Since we do not have the infinite and eternal "capacity tor God" that Christ does, that is not possible.

    Leave a comment:


  • FarEastBird
    replied
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

    This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

    God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
    God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.
    Dead people don't move (act).

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    That creatures come to be, is not a change in God.
    It is a change in what is not-God, from non-being, to (creaturely participation in) being.
    God is not changed by His works ad extra
    Creation is an exercise, in a created and therefore limited mode, of what God eternally is. God is no more changed by inventing what was not, than a human author is. Creation is a manifestation, in a limited manner, of the infinite fullness being of God - it is not God;
    and is not evil;
    not necessary to God;
    It does not imply any lack in God.

    Before creation there was no “when”, “before” or “after”. Those words have meaning only “within” creation, the making of which they presuppose. We can’t rightly say “before creation”, because doing so treats God’s eternity, and time as creatures experience it, as though they were the same, and therefore as continuous, the same in kind. That is like asking when Coruscant was built. That would be a worthwhile question to ask a Jedi, but it would be absurd to ask George Lucas, because the Jedi and George Lucas belong to different modes of being, different realities. The history of that galaxy, Coruscant included, has no where or when but George Lucas and its other creators.

    One cannot, in reality, go from Coruscant to Skywalker Ranch, because the two places, each real in its own reality, are not equally real. For one was imagined, and then built as a humanly accessible place which is accessible in the body; while the other is humanly accessible only by imaginative sympathy, because it belongs to the Secondary World of feigned history. Coruscant “is not real” - Skywalker Ranch “is real”.

    I think Dante was right - every “when” and “where” is “present in” the TriUne God. Which hardly goes beyond what St Paul says of Christ in Colossians 1. If all creation is “in God”, why and how is God changed by it ? Creation is not external to God, or not in the way that a triangle, cube or polyhedron is external to a maths teacher. I think the relation of creatures to God is better dealt with by the metaphysics of being, than by thinking of creatures as discrete material objects “outside” God. God is “Other” than creatures, because God is the Holy One. And neither materialism nor metaphysics is equal to “comprehending” that. I think it is a great wonder, that the Most Holy God can be the Creator of all things.
    Is it a change or not a change for God? From never creating to to creating? Yes or no?

    Leave a comment:


  • Machinist
    replied
    Doesn't God have a throne and scepter? Are these items co-eternal with God or did He create them?

    Leave a comment:


  • tabibito
    replied
    I'm not willing to scrap scripture for the sake of supporting the concept of an immutable God. The conception of Christ - he who became flesh - who later died (by his own declaration, according to scripture) - who now sits at the right hand of God - shows that (according to scripture at least) God is mutable.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rushing Jaws
    replied
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

    This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

    God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
    God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.
    That creatures come to be, is not a change in God.
    It is a change in what is not-God, from non-being, to (creaturely participation in) being.
    God is not changed by His works ad extra
    Creation is an exercise, in a created and therefore limited mode, of what God eternally is. God is no more changed by inventing what was not, than a human author is. Creation is a manifestation, in a limited manner, of the infinite fullness being of God - it is not God;
    and is not evil;
    not necessary to God;
    It does not imply any lack in God.

    Before creation there was no “when”, “before” or “after”. Those words have meaning only “within” creation, the making of which they presuppose. We can’t rightly say “before creation”, because doing so treats God’s eternity, and time as creatures experience it, as though they were the same, and therefore as continuous, the same in kind. That is like asking when Coruscant was built. That would be a worthwhile question to ask a Jedi, but it would be absurd to ask George Lucas, because the Jedi and George Lucas belong to different modes of being, different realities. The history of that galaxy, Coruscant included, has no where or when but George Lucas and its other creators.

    One cannot, in reality, go from Coruscant to Skywalker Ranch, because the two places, each real in its own reality, are not equally real. For one was imagined, and then built as a humanly accessible place which is accessible in the body; while the other is humanly accessible only by imaginative sympathy, because it belongs to the Secondary World of feigned history. Coruscant “is not real” - Skywalker Ranch “is real”.

    I think Dante was right - every “when” and “where” is “present in” the TriUne God. Which hardly goes beyond what St Paul says of Christ in Colossians 1. If all creation is “in God”, why and how is God changed by it ? Creation is not external to God, or not in the way that a triangle, cube or polyhedron is external to a maths teacher. I think the relation of creatures to God is better dealt with by the metaphysics of being, than by thinking of creatures as discrete material objects “outside” God. God is “Other” than creatures, because God is the Holy One. And neither materialism nor metaphysics is equal to “comprehending” that. I think it is a great wonder, that the Most Holy God can be the Creator of all things.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 06-20-2021, 10:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Njoroge
    replied
    Sorry about typos.I wrestle with spell check and lose.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Njoroge
    replied
    I believe all the matter in the universe has always existed it just changes form endlessly. I see God(Hashem)as the Author of consciousness. I argue primitive man cocieved a creator I ask to ponder that this creator admits God would therefore be an uncaused causes. If an uncaused cause is possible? Than isn't it possible with matter that it could not have came from nothing if in fact matter headed a cause? Than what created the first cause? Who I'd the creator of the creator? The En Sof can not be described in words. Religion tried to explain the unexplainable thus will always fail to put Absolute Truth in words.

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    This may be necro-ing, but anyway...

    No. God is not changed by His acts ad extra - that is, by acts “outside” His intra-Personal Trinitarian Life. What does undergo change, is what God creates and governs. But in God Himself, there is no change or alteration of any kind.
    If God did not change in His action then that action would be something that God has always done from eternity. There was never a first time.

    The Incarnation of the Eternal Divine Word did not “do anything” to the Word, Who Is eternal with the Father. What was changed, and given infinite dignity, was the human nature assumed by the Word. For the human nature assumed by the Word is created.
    Two things here. One, nothing was "made" except by the Word (John 1:1-3). And secondly, the Word being "made" flesh (John 1:14) was in fact a change.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rushing Jaws
    replied
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    I believe in the immutability of God. Here I am going to argue against it.


    "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." -- Genesis1:1.

    This being understood to be an ex nihilo creation.

    God never creating anything, then after never creating anything, this God acts and creates everything.
    God went from not being the Creator to becoming the Creator. A change which negates any real claim to immutability.
    This may be necro-ing, but anyway...

    No. God is not changed by His acts ad extra - that is, by acts “outside” His intra-Personal Trinitarian Life. What does undergo change, is what God creates and governs. But in God Himself, there is no change or alteration of any kind.

    The Incarnation of the Eternal Divine Word did not “do anything” to the Word, Who Is eternal with the Father. What was changed, and given infinite dignity, was the human nature assumed by the Word. For the human nature assumed by the Word is created.
    Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 01-26-2018, 12:38 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
    2 differing persons?
    BU
    Yes. And all that Jehovah does He does via His agent (John 1:3). Jehovah does not change, His agent does the changing (like John 1:14, like Genesis 1:1 - Ephesians 3:9). So unless you honor the Son you do not honor Jehovah (John 5:23; 2 John 9; Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12, 20).

    Leave a comment:


  • Bibleuser
    replied
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    ". . . For I, Jehovah, change not; . . ." -- Malachi 3:6. (Hebrews 13:8)
    2 differing persons?
    BU

    Leave a comment:


  • 37818
    replied
    Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
    How about God being unable to change because he is what he is!
    But he can change all our anything external to himself as he wants.
    BU
    ". . . For I, Jehovah, change not; . . ." -- Malachi 3:6. (Hebrews 13:8)

    Leave a comment:


  • Bibleuser
    replied
    How about God being unable to change because he is what he is!
    But he can change all our anything external to himself as he wants.
    BU

    Leave a comment:


  • Marta
    replied
    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    Apples and oranges. The finite is subordinate to the infinite and the temporal is subordinate to the eternal. Something can be finite and temporal and be eternal in being finite and temporal.

    Hebrews 13:8,
    Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
    Ecclesiastes 3: 14-15

    The Excellence in God's Works

    …14 I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him. 15 That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by.

    Leave a comment:

Related Threads

Collapse

Topics Statistics Last Post
Started by Larry Serflaten, 02-02-2024, 04:25 AM
1 response
20 views
0 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Started by tabibito, 01-31-2024, 06:29 AM
18 responses
78 views
0 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Started by Larry Serflaten, 01-28-2024, 09:31 AM
15 responses
79 views
0 likes
Last Post tabibito  
Started by Larry Serflaten, 01-25-2024, 10:30 AM
358 responses
1,534 views
0 likes
Last Post Sparko
by Sparko
 
Working...
X