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This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

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Immutability of God.

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  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
    God giving His written Law to man was a temporal and finite act of God. From God who is infinite and immutable. And was done by way of His eternal Son and His holy messengers.

    At issue. God always was and is. Creation being a unique finite temporal act from God constitutes a change. God did not change, so there has to also always been a finite and temporal Cause with God. We know Him to be the Son (John 1:1-3).
    Matthew 19:16-30New Living Translation (NLT)

    The Rich Man

    16 Someone came to Jesus with this question: “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?”

    17 “Why ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. But to answer your question—if you want to receive eternal life, keep the commandments.”

    ****

    Another version:

    Matthew 19:16-30New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)

    16 Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” 17 He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

    ****

    One last version:

    18Then a certain ruler asked Him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.…




    The story begins with "Good teacher - In Romans 10, Paul quotes from Deuteronomy 30 and makes comparisons with Christ:

    Moses said that no one needed to ascend to heaven to bring down the law again (Deut 30:12); God had already freely given the law. Paul makes a comparison: in the same way, he says, no one needs to ascend to heaven to bring down Christ again: God already sent him freely (Rom 10:6).

    Moses said that no one needed to descend into the depths of the sea again (Deut 30:13); God had already redeemed his people and brought them through the sea. Paul makes another comparison: no one needs to descend to the depths, as if to bring Christ up from the dead; God already raised him (Rom 10:7).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
      God giving His written Law to man was a temporal and finite act of God. From God who is infinite and immutable. And was done by way of His eternal Son and His holy messengers.

      At issue. God always was and is. Creation being a unique finite temporal act from God constitutes a change. God did not change, so there has to also always been a finite and temporal Cause with God. We know Him to be the Son (John 1:1-3).
      "1958 The natural law is immutable and permanent throughout the variations of history;10 it subsists under the flux of ideas and customs and supports their progress. The rules that express it remain substantially valid. Even when it is rejected in its very principles, it cannot be destroyed or removed from the heart of man. It always rises again in the life of individuals and societies:


      Theft is surely punished by your law, O Lord, and by the law that is written in the human heart, the law that iniquity itself does not efface." LINK: CHAPTER THREE
      GOD'S SALVATION: LAW AND GRACE

      ARTICLE 1
      THE MORAL LAW


      The argument is that the "Law" had risen to its perfection through Christ but also, that Moses (like Abraham) initiated the beginning process and Christ finished the ending, "14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law, 15 since they show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts either accusing or defending them. 16 This will come to pass on that day when God will judge men’s secrets through Christ Jesus, as proclaimed by my gospel.…Romans 2:15.

      Again, and in order to have a judgment day, you need the law. The law is not as you said, " a finite temporal act".
      Last edited by Marta; 05-06-2017, 03:00 AM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Your post consists of multiple arguments.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Marta View Post
          <snip>
          Again, and in order to have a judgment day, you need the law. The law is not as you said, " a finite temporal act".
          Oh. Judgement day is a finite and temporal event. How does the Law pertain to that which is eternal and infinite? A law to be meaningful can only pertain to that which is finite and temporal in order to be applicable to finite and temporal creation.
          Last edited by 37818; 05-07-2017, 10:16 AM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
            Oh. Judgement day is a finite and temporal event. How does the Law pertain to that which is eternal and infinite? A law to be meaningful can only pertain to that which is finite and temporal in order to be applicable to finite and temporal creation.
            ...Judgment day? Judgment day occurs throughout history - see Daniel 2: 21, 1 Samuel 2, "for the Lord is a God who knows,
            and by him deeds are weighed"John 15:22. The word midah in Hebrew means "measure." All of our interactions are measured and weighed. What fate determined Sodom and Gomorrah destruction? Genesis 18:20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

            Canon" (Greek kanon) means a reed; a straight rod or bar; a measuring stick; something serving to determine, rule, or measure. See Genesis 15:16, in determining for the sin of the Amorites which did not yet reached its full measure. How is sin weighed? What is considered full measure - See also Romans 11:25, I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number (measure) of the Gentiles has come in"
            Last edited by Marta; 05-08-2017, 03:43 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Marta View Post
              ...Judgment day? Judgment day occurs throughout history - see Daniel 2: 21, 1 Samuel 2, "for the Lord is a God who knows,
              and by him deeds are weighed"John 15:22. The word midah in Hebrew means "measure." All of our interactions are measured and weighed. What fate determined Sodom and Gomorrah destruction? Genesis 18:20 Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.”

              Canon" (Greek kanon) means a reed; a straight rod or bar; a measuring stick; something serving to determine, rule, or measure. See Genesis 15:16, in determining for the sin of the Amorites which did not yet reached its full measure. How is sin weighed? What is considered full measure - See also Romans 11:25, I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number (measure) of the Gentiles has come in"
              2 Peter 3:10,
              . . . the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

              Revelation 20:11,
              . . . a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . .
              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

              Comment


              • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                Oh. Judgement day is a finite and temporal event. How does the Law pertain to that which is eternal and infinite? A law to be meaningful can only pertain to that which is finite and temporal in order to be applicable to finite and temporal creation.
                If Judgment is finite and temporal event - Revelation 20:11,
                . . . a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. . . .

                The great judgment seat - Exodus 18:13 "The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people (a foreshadow of Jesus - Matthew 28:18 ), and they stood around him from morning till evening." 15 Moses answered him (Jethro), “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. 16 Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.” (laws - Judgments). However, and repeating, if Exodus was a foreshadow of the Jesus - The Messiah, it would have been in the verse Matthew 11:27, ""All things have been committed to me by my Father." Moses received the physical law (letter of the law) by God and then the law was transmitted to the people, Christ handed down the spiritual law from heaven at Pentecost (descending of the Spirit upon the apostles). (Now Christ has given us a New Covenant of the spirit based on spiritual law). Which now we understand the law to be fulfilled and deemed divine and eternal!

                "According to Jeremiah, "the qualities of the new covenant expounded upon the old are : a) It will not be broken; b) Its law will be written in the heart, not merely on tablets of stone; c) The knowledge of God will deem it no longer necessary to put it into written words of instruction."[3] According to Luke (Lk 22, 20), and Paul, in the first epistle to the Corinthians (1 Cor 11, 25), this prophecy was fulfilled only through the work of Jesus Christ,[3] who said "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which will be shed for you." Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. His purpose was to encourage people to look beyond the "letter of the law" to the "spirit of the law"...the principles behind the commandments and the law's intention. Jesus quotes the book of Deuteronomy and Leviticus: "All the Law can be summed up in this: to love God with all your heart, all your mind and all your soul, and to love your neighbor as yourself" (paraphrased)."

                The books that are opened (Revelation 20:12) contain records of everyone’s deeds, whether they are good or evil, because God knows everything that has ever been said, done, or even thought, and He will reward or punish each one accordingly (Psalm 28:4; 62:12; Romans 2:6; Revelation 2:23; 18:6; 22:12). Again, and repeating, see Daniel 2: 21, 1 Samuel 2, "for the Lord is a God who knows, and by him deeds are weighed" John 15:22. The word midah in Hebrew means "measure." All of our interactions are measured and weighed.

                The divine law is not finite - but eternal.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  God giving His written Law to man was a temporal and finite act of God. From God who is infinite and immutable. And was done by way of His eternal Son and His holy messengers.
                  God gave the Israelites the written law (the physical - the letter of the law) foreshadowing the spirit of the law that was to come and to be given to us by God through our Lord Jesus Christ (See: Deuteronomy 29:4, Pentecost - the descent of the Holy Spirit occurred while the Apostles were celebrating the Jewish day of Shavuot (Hebrew: שבועות‎‎, lit. "Weeks"), the Feast of Weeks, a prominent feast in the calendar of ancient Israel celebrating the giving of the Law to Moses at Sinai.) Remember the verse, " the Apostle Peter stood up with the eleven and proclaimed to the crowd that this event was the fulfillment of the prophecy ("I will pour out my spirit")."

                  In Matthew 5:20-44, Christ showed that obeying the “letter of the Law” is a matter of physical action, whereas obeying the “spirit of the Law” requires more than just outward actionsit also involves an attitude of the mind, as well as, to act above the letter of the law. —referred to by the Apostle Paul as “circumcision of the heart” (Rom. 2:28-29).

                  The Spirit of Law - is that it has attached within us ("You shall do that which is right and good" ) and has set up boundaries as one must also exercise self-control (“temperance”–Gal. 5:23). Also, the law was not something robotic but had to have meaning and a purpose since we have to apply it to everyday living.
                  Last edited by Marta; 05-09-2017, 11:22 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    At issue. God always was and is. Creation being a unique finite temporal act from God constitutes a change. God did not change, so there has to also always been a finite and temporal Cause with God. We know Him to be the Son (John 1:1-3).
                    John 6:32, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. . . . I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst” (John 6:32-35).

                    The Jews refer to the manna given to them by Moses as a sign of God's promised covenant, and Jesus asserts that the manna was from God and not from Moses, and that the people who ate it were nourished on their journey but ultimately died. In contrast, according to the gospel, Jesus offered living bread, and whoever ate this bread would never die.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Marta View Post
                      . . .

                      The divine law is not finite - but eternal.
                      Apples and oranges. The finite is subordinate to the infinite and the temporal is subordinate to the eternal. Something can be finite and temporal and be eternal in being finite and temporal.

                      Hebrews 13:8,
                      Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
                      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                        Apples and oranges. The finite is subordinate to the infinite and the temporal is subordinate to the eternal. Something can be finite and temporal and be eternal in being finite and temporal.

                        Hebrews 13:8,
                        Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
                        Ecclesiastes 3: 14-15

                        The Excellence in God's Works

                        …14 I know that everything God does will remain forever; there is nothing to add to it and there is nothing to take from it, for God has so worked that men should fear Him. 15 That which is has been already and that which will be has already been, for God seeks what has passed by.

                        Comment


                        • How about God being unable to change because he is what he is!
                          But he can change all our anything external to himself as he wants.
                          BU

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                            How about God being unable to change because he is what he is!
                            But he can change all our anything external to himself as he wants.
                            BU
                            ". . . For I, Jehovah, change not; . . ." -- Malachi 3:6. (Hebrews 13:8)
                            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                              ". . . For I, Jehovah, change not; . . ." -- Malachi 3:6. (Hebrews 13:8)
                              2 differing persons?
                              BU

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bibleuser View Post
                                2 differing persons?
                                BU
                                Yes. And all that Jehovah does He does via His agent (John 1:3). Jehovah does not change, His agent does the changing (like John 1:14, like Genesis 1:1 - Ephesians 3:9). So unless you honor the Son you do not honor Jehovah (John 5:23; 2 John 9; Romans 8:9; 1 John 5:12, 20).
                                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                                Comment

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