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Moved From: Jesus and NT

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  • Moved From: Jesus and NT

    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Moderated By: Bill the Cat

    Please explain what you mean by this statement. Are you suggesting that Jews do not need Christ, or that they should not become Christians?

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

    Most believers can arrive at sound scriptural principles without being 'branded.'

    I also find it disingenuous to suggest that belief/faith in God is not when held by Jews.

    Same God. Same Word.

    It's generally pointless to divide the Word of God (OT) from the Word of God (NT.)

    Fervent believers of Judaism know their Word. They are in many cases engaged by poor examples from the christian side of the ledgers.

  • #2
    Originally posted by mitzi View Post
    Reply back to Squint

    Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.…
    There is no doubt that the Spirit of Christ spoke through the O.T. prophets. They just did not know the whole story at the time said Word was delivered. We have the pleasure of 20/20 hindsight as christians.

    .......read Baruch on this, as in Ezekiel 18:31
    Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
    Nearly identical admonishments are provided in the N.T. to christians. 2 Tim. 2:19 is a great correlation.


    But in the country of their exile, they will come to themselves 31 and acknowledge that I am the Lord their God. I shall give them a heart and an attentive ear,
    32 and they will sing my praises in the country of their exile, they will remember my name; 33 they will stop being obstinate and, remembering what became of their ancestors who sinned before the Lord, will turn from their evil deeds.

    34 Then I shall bring them back to the country which I promised on oath to their ancestors Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and make them masters in it. I shall make their numbers grow; they will not dwindle again (See Nehemiah 1: 8 “Remember the instruction you gave your servant Moses, saying, ‘If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations, 9 but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.’)
    Paul advised us that regardless of Israel's blinding, they shall all be saved. Even enemies of the Gospel. Romans 11:25-32

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by squint View Post
      Most believers can arrive at sound scriptural principles without being 'branded.'

      I also find it disingenuous to suggest that belief/faith in God is not when held by Jews.

      Same God. Same Word.

      It's generally pointless to divide the Word of God (OT) from the Word of God (NT.)

      Fervent believers of Judaism know their Word. They are in many cases engaged by poor examples from the christian side of the ledgers.
      Moderated By: Bill the Cat

      That does not answer my question at all. Do the Jews need to believe in Jesus in order to receive salvation? That is a yes or no question coming from a moderator.

      ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
      Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
        Moderated By: Bill the Cat

        That does not answer my question at all. Do the Jews need to believe in Jesus in order to receive salvation? That is a yes or no question coming from a moderator.

        ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
        Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

        Salvation by faith existed in the O.T. too Bill. And was taught from the O.T. by Jesus and the Apostle Paul.

        Maybe you should ask yourself if God honors that?

        In addition you may take a swing at Romans 11:25-32.

        If you understand that Jews are taught in the O.T. that they are Gods children (Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6), you would conclude that God doesn't burn them alive or annihilate them forever. If you conclude otherwise I might question the basis of such a God.

        Comment


        • #5
          Moderated By: Bill the Cat

          Since this is an official moderator sidebar, I am keeping the conversation within the moderator tags

          Originally posted by squint View Post
          Salvation by faith existed in the O.T. too Bill.
          Faith in God to provide a savior, yes. Which is faith in Jesus.

          And was taught from the O.T. by Jesus and the Apostle Paul.
          Correct. And Hebrews 11 explains what that faith was in.

          Maybe you should ask yourself if God honors that?
          No need. I already know what kind of faith He honors.

          In addition you may take a swing at Romans 11:25-32.
          Vs. 26 is the key. They had to have faith in the deliverer being sent. But this is not about MY explanations. It is about YOURS.

          If you understand that Jews are taught in the O.T. that they are Gods children (Deut. 14:1 or Psalm 82:6), you would conclude that God doesn't burn them alive or annihilate them forever.
          Then why does Jesus call the JEWISH Pharisees "children of the devil"? Sorry, but no. Not every single Jew who ever lived will get to go to heaven simply by being born Jewish. Jesus was quite specific about that.

          If you conclude otherwise I might question the basis of such a God.
          The orthodox Christian faith says that belief in Jesus (or in the Messiah prior to His incarnation) is the ONLY way to get to heaven, ever. If you deny that, then you are not an orthodox Christian.

          ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
          Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #6
            Faith in God to provide a savior, yes. Which is faith in Jesus.
            As prior stated Bill. Faith in God of the O.T. is faith in the same God unless you want to step into any number of various hersies dividing Jesus away from God of the O.T?
            Correct. And Hebrews 11 explains what that faith was in.
            Being the direct beneficiaries of a better and clearer picture provides no person a stick to beat those Jews who have faith in the same God Bill. Paul's warns us against doing that in Romans 11.
            No need. I already know what kind of faith He honors.
            We are not saved by correct doctrine. We are saved by faith. A mustard seed variety as in exceptionally small will prove sufficient.
            Vs. 26 is the key. They had to have faith in the deliverer being sent. But this is not about MY explanations. It is about YOURS.
            I read Paul. You read Paul. I accept Paul's facts regarding all Jews in Romans 11 and in any other references in scripture. I also understand that neither of us sees Perfectly. You may see your sight as otherwise.
            Then why does Jesus call the JEWISH Pharisees "children of the devil"?
            Satan is not a human being nor are devils PEOPLE Bill!

            IS that what you teach here??? That devils are PEOPLE???

            IF so call me appalled for stumbling in to an apostate website.

            I'd suggest nothing to such God seared visions.

            Comment


            • #7
              Moderated By: Bill the Cat

              Originally posted by squint View Post
              As prior stated Bill. Faith in God of the O.T. is faith in the same God unless you want to step into any number of various hersies dividing Jesus away from God of the O.T?
              Assuming that every Jew has faith in God is simply wrong.

              Being the direct beneficiaries of a better and clearer picture provides no person a stick to beat those Jews who have faith in the same God Bill.
              Nor did I suggest any such thing. But the picture is the same for pre- and post-incarnation.

              Paul's warns us against doing that in Romans 11.
              And he makes it clear that not all Jews will be saved.

              Heb 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

              So, Paul in no way says that Jews are beneficiaries of universal salvation based only on their lineage.

              We are not saved by correct doctrine. We are saved by faith.
              Nor are the Jews saved by simply being Jewish. Do you deny that?

              A mustard seed variety as in exceptionally small will prove sufficient.
              But Hebrew blood won't.

              I read Paul. You read Paul. I accept Paul's facts regarding all Jews in Romans 11 and in any other references in scripture. I also understand that neither of us sees Perfectly. You may see your sight as otherwise.
              I know what Paul says about Israel. I also know what Jesus says about salvation. Claiming that there is more than one path to salvation, i.e. being a Jew by bloodline, goes completely contrary to the message of the Gospel.

              Satan is not a human being nor are devils PEOPLE Bill!
              No kidding... but by Jesus calling them of their father, the devil, He was telling them that they were not saved merely by being Jewish. Their actions betrayed their lack of faith in God's Messiah.

              IS that what you teach here??? That devils are PEOPLE???


              IF so call me appalled for stumbling in to an apostate website.
              Looks like you don't know what apostasy is either...

              ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
              Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #8
                I'd call Satanic salvation about as apostate as one can get Bill. Spin it however you please.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Moderated By: Bill the Cat

                  Originally posted by squint View Post
                  I'd call Satanic salvation about as apostate as one can get Bill. Spin it however you please.
                  I'm asking you as a moderator if you are proclaiming that Jews can be saved without believing in the Messiah. Yes or no. No additional commentary. Just a yes or no. If you refuse to answer that question directly, your posting ability will be curtailed until you do answer it. This is an official moderator demand.

                  ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                  Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Moderated By: Bill the Cat


                    I'm asking you as a moderator if you are proclaiming that Jews can be saved without believing in the Messiah. Yes or no. No additional commentary. Just a yes or no. If you refuse to answer that question directly, your posting ability will be curtailed until you do answer it. This is an official moderator demand.

                    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                    I can appreciate you throwing your weight around Bill but it is unlikely we speak the same language when it comes to theological terms and I don't fit well in Satanic salvation box dialogs.

                    Faith works through love. If you'd like to claim that Jesus as God is NOT love you are welcome to go there next for your final thrust out.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by squint View Post
                      I can appreciate you throwing your weight around Bill but it is unlikely we speak the same language when it comes to theological terms and I don't fit well in Satanic salvation box dialogs.

                      Faith works through love. If you'd like to claim that Jesus as God is NOT love you are welcome to go there next for your final thrust out.
                      Not sure if I'm allowed to interject here or not, but where are you getting this "Satanic salvation" motif from Bill's posts? Is it because he cited John 8:44? If so, Bill isn't saying that the Jews (or more specifically, the Pharisees of verse 13), are saved because they belong to their father, the devil, to the contrary, Bill is asserting that certain of the Jews (again, the Pharisees of verse 13) are NOT saved, specifically because they do not believe in Jesus (verse 45).

                      I honestly don't understand how you're misunderstanding him this badly. I mean, do you actually think that Bill is positing that the Jews as a people are the natural born sons of a physical Satan, and that they are saved because he he is Satan, or is this some very odd debate tactic where you're attempting some form of reductio ad absurdum?

                      Also, I imagine the reason that Bill is asking you these (in my opinion, relatively straightforward) questions, is because, as a mod, he needs to ascertain whether or not you hold an unorthodox view of Christianity. If so, unorthodox Christians are limited by forum rules to certain areas of the forum. So he's throwing his weight around for justifiable reasons.

                      Just so you know, I'm relatively neutral-ish on the topic. If it is your view that Jews, in general, do not need to make Christ Lord to attain salvation, I think that's a very slippery position. I can see how certain arguments might be justified. Like, for instance, if a Jew was able to keep the law perfectly (though how one could keep the law perfectly, and on top of that, not recognize the messiah, I have no idea) then perhaps, maybe, they could attain salvation. If we assume that the Jew was somehow completely ignorant of Christ's existence, and yet somehow retained faith in a future messiah, then I suppose that's for Jesus to work out on judgement day, but by and large, I imagine that Galatians 3:28 (and other places in Paul's writings) demonstrates that there isn't much distinction anymore between Jew and Gentile as concerns salvation in Christ.

                      I do sort of sorta disagree with Bill on one point. Paul did not necessarily write Hebrews, and in fact, probably most scholars today would say that Paul did not write Hebrews, but regardless, I believe someone with divine authority in the church wrote Hebrews, and it appears to me that that whoever wrote it, attempted to write with the same theology in mind as Paul had. Likely, in my opinion, someone who worked closely with (or as a contemporary with) Paul wrote it. Maybe Barnabas or Apollos.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        Not sure if I'm allowed to interject here or not, but where are you getting this "Satanic salvation" motif from Bill's posts? Is it because he cited John 8:44?
                        I'd suggest that if a moderator doesn't know the difference between a devil and a human being someone is pretty far off the charts of scriptural reality.

                        To call Jews 'children of the devil' when Jesus was clearly addressing DEVILS IN them as an entirely different entity class no different that addressing Satan in Peter is a slur of decency not to mention a slew of theological pits with a side of anti-semitism thrown in for extra flavors.

                        I'll pass on commenting on the balance of your post to see how much Bill would like to beat my head in here rather than explore some extremely interesting subject matter as it relates to Jews, God and Christ.

                        If Bill doesn't think that everyone who loves knows God and is born of God ala 1 John 4:7's statement from John the Apostle and has some other special limited filters that he likes better such as 'his pet doctrinal adherences' in place of faith in God I'd certainly love to plumb some of that as well, his moderator position notwithstanding.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by squint View Post
                          I'd suggest that if a moderator doesn't know the difference between a devil and a human being someone is pretty far off the charts of scriptural reality.

                          To call Jews 'children of the devil' when Jesus was clearly addressing DEVILS IN them as an entirely different entity class no different that addressing Satan in Peter is a slur of decency not to mention a slew of theological pits with a side of anti-semitism thrown in for extra flavors.
                          I'm certain that Bill knows the difference between a devil and a human. But where are you getting the idea that the devil was IN the Pharisees? Its just as likely (more likely even) that the devil influenced the Pharisaical way of thinking in some form or fashion. And where are you getting antisemitism out of all of this? Bill is quoting Jesus about a way of thinking among the religious authorities of the 1st century, who turned out to be wrong!

                          If Bill doesn't think that everyone who loves knows God and is born of God ala 1 John 4:7's statement from John the Apostle and has some other special limited filters that he likes better such as 'his pet doctrinal adherences' in place of faith in God I'd certainly love to plumb some of that as well, his moderator position notwithstanding.
                          Are you seriously advocating taking 1 John 4:7 out of its context and applying it to all of those who who claim to know and love God? What about the rest of the passage that specifically refers to those who are lovers of God?

                          Source: 1 John 4

                          Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. 4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

                          7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

                          13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this is love perfected with us, so that we may have confidence for the day of judgment, because as he is so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, I love God, and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot[a] love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          Are you a Universalist by chance?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Howdy Squint, it might be profitable for you to meditate on the following verses:

                            "Yeshua said to them, I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (John 14:6)

                            "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him" (John 3:36)

                            "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts. 4:12)

                            If the meaning of these verses is distorted by being taken out of context, then please highlight the context and correct me. I would more than welcome any honest exegetical correction.

                            Thanks!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Moderated By: Bill the Cat


                              Originally posted by squint View Post
                              I can appreciate you throwing your weight around Bill but it is unlikely we speak the same language when it comes to theological terms and I don't fit well in Satanic salvation box dialogs.

                              Faith works through love. If you'd like to claim that Jesus as God is NOT love you are welcome to go there next for your final thrust out.
                              Welcome to the matrix.

                              ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
                              Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment

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