Announcement

Collapse

Unorthodox Theology 201 Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.

The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."

The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

What the gospel truly says of salvation....

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
    I just read Wikipedia about the subject and it is not applicable to me. I was, rather, 'corrected' of my thoughts and ideas, and of my personal leanings; so it was not a 'confirmation bias'. And personal experiences had solidified that I was in error. And after a time I begun to understand and confirm that things has nothing to do with my will, nor of any of my power; and that all things will be but the works of God. And, actually, the gospel that I came to understand has no room for being biased.
    Wikipedia!!! And everyone is biased. I supposed you think you have a special hotline to God that none of us mere peasants have. What makes you so more important that the rest of us puny humans?

    Leave a comment:


  • FarEastBird
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    Yes, you sound a little unhinged to me. Sorry, but I'm sure you'd rather I was honest. As to 'signs from God, have you considered a phenomenon called 'confirmation bias'?
    I just read Wikipedia about the subject and it is not applicable to me. I was, rather, 'corrected' of my thoughts and ideas, and of my personal leanings; so it was not a 'confirmation bias'. And personal experiences had solidified that I was in error. And after a time I begun to understand and confirm that things has nothing to do with my will, nor of any of my power; and that all things will be but the works of God. And, actually, the gospel that I came to understand has no room for being biased.

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    The emphasis on esoteric prophecies is so fringe that I haven't even heard of it before. I'm just skeptical. The Holy Spirit never told me that stuff. Just lets me know when something is wrong. And I accidentally amened your post... it deserves a negative amen.

    Leave a comment:


  • pancreasman
    replied
    Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
    I prayed to God to give me signs, and I received it.

    Human knowledge is limited, and such is the very reason Christians falls into believing logical fallacies. Apologetics is very strong in leading us to believe in God; but apologetics is limited in leading us to know God. The Gospel is what truly reveals God, and the misled gospel(s) that are preached by many are laughable and hardly to be accepted as reason to believe, much less to be persuaded through them, of the godhead. One can surely notice that what persuade most unbelievers to believe God is apologetics, not the gospel.

    The Gospel of Grace is not hinged on apologetics. Delving in apologetics sharpen our minds, but the salvation of God through his Grace is not hinged on how smart one is, or how much knowledge one has. One can excel in the academia but end up having a faith that is ludicrous, and even logically fallacious ones. The revelation of salvation was not revealed until Christ came who revealed it, yet there are saved even before the revelation of salvation was given. There is then in the human nature that human's knowledge cannot save himself, though every elect are being led to have a renewed mind. There is a truth about the relationship of God and man for which hinged the reason we are saved through grace. (((for this reason, I am also subject to doubt)))))

    But here is how God tell us to verify things, and to know whom he sent: Deut 18:21-22
    21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.


    Witnessing of the truthfulness of God is through prophesies, not apologetics.

    Am I talking as nuts to you? Please tell me of which thing(s) I said is/are nuts.
    Yes, you sound a little unhinged to me. Sorry, but I'm sure you'd rather I was honest. As to 'signs from God, have you considered a phenomenon called 'confirmation bias'?

    Leave a comment:


  • FarEastBird
    replied
    Originally posted by pancreasman View Post
    Here's my question: How do you know you're not just another nutjob? I might be one. It's certainly possible. Are YOU open to the possibility you might be wrong?
    I prayed to God to give me signs, and I received it.

    Human knowledge is limited, and such is the very reason Christians falls into believing logical fallacies. Apologetics is very strong in leading us to believe in God; but apologetics is limited in leading us to know God. The Gospel is what truly reveals God, and the misled gospel(s) that are preached by many are laughable and hardly to be accepted as reason to believe, much less to be persuaded through them, of the godhead. One can surely notice that what persuade most unbelievers to believe God is apologetics, not the gospel.

    The Gospel of Grace is not hinged on apologetics. Delving in apologetics sharpen our minds, but the salvation of God through his Grace is not hinged on how smart one is, or how much knowledge one has. One can excel in the academia but end up having a faith that is ludicrous, and even logically fallacious ones. The revelation of salvation was not revealed until Christ came who revealed it, yet there are saved even before the revelation of salvation was given. There is then in the human nature that human's knowledge cannot save himself, though every elect are being led to have a renewed mind. There is a truth about the relationship of God and man for which hinged the reason we are saved through grace. (((for this reason, I am also subject to doubt)))))

    But here is how God tell us to verify things, and to know whom he sent: Deut 18:21-22
    21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.


    Witnessing of the truthfulness of God is through prophesies, not apologetics.

    Am I talking as nuts to you? Please tell me of which thing(s) I said is/are nuts.

    Leave a comment:


  • pancreasman
    replied
    Here's my question: How do you know you're not just another nutjob? I might be one. It's certainly possible. Are YOU open to the possibility you might be wrong?

    Leave a comment:


  • FarEastBird
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    And YOU have to note what Paul says about God ALWAYS keeping a remnant of Israel to Himself. You err and do not know the scriptures. See Romans 9

    27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
    “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
    only the remnant will be saved.
    Check what you said to what the prophesies say. I do not even know how you came up of the idea of '"ALWAYS" keeping a remnant.' Your reading into the verse your belief that does not fit to the prophesies, nor to the literal interpretation of the verse you quoted. Inserting your word "ALWAYS" changes the message of the verse. Read what you quoted: "THE remnant."

    Christ came to gather Israel, Jesus himself said so (Matt 15:24), and it was Paul whom Christ sent to be the apostles to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15). When the apostles were preaching, it was even Paul himself who said to the Jews: "... It was NECESSARY that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you....." (Acts 13:46)

    The reason why it was necessary that the Jews should be first to hear the gospel is because that according to God's promises to Israel, unless they fell to unbelief the kingdom would remain to them. But, according to the parable of Christ himself, the Jews will reject him and the judgment that Christ spoke against the nation was fulfilled in 70 AD when the Jerusalem was laid to ruins.

    So, when Christ came to gather Israel, he knew that Israel will not be gathered, even as said in the prophecy in Isaiah 49:5. Rather, Jesus spoke of other flock, a different group, beside the disciples' flock/group, that will come in his name (John 10:16); and this was prophesied in Isaiah 56:8. It was this flock of disciples who will be saved in those times that is referred as "the remnant."


    I know what Paul is saying. And I know the context. Your salad bar approach can't account for the remnant of Romans 9
    You miserably misunderstood even the verse you quoted.


    Rubbish! It was God's plan all along to include the Gentiles in the house of faith. The promise of redemption was made to the offspring of Adam and Eve.
    Well, you have no idea how God is making a "demonstration" on the mystery of his salvation through events. So you are actually missing what message that Paul was truly trying to convey.


    Nope. He said that it would come FROM the Jews, meaning Jesus was a Jew. And as the inheritor of the promise of the firstborn due to Esau's selling it, the Jews would receive first rights to salvation before the Gentiles would be allowed.

    Romans 1:16

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
    You are making God unjust because of your misled gospel. Such is truly disgusting in the eyes of God.

    When we come to the truth of salvation, salvation was according to God's plan even before the world begun,. An elect was saved according to God's plan even before the world began (2Tim 1:9). Even though God was making promises to certain person, or people, his word was meant to be taken spiritually not literally. And so Paul, in his gospel, explains whom were the true subject of the promises: the children of faith, whether Jews or Gentiles (Rom 4:9-24, Gal 3:7).

    Romans 1:16 has nothing to do with Esau, nor your personal interpretation which you are alluding.

    What Romans 1:16 is saying is that the gospel will bring salvation to those who will believe it. The gospel came from Christ and revealed it to the disciples who were Jews, and then the disciples has to preach the gospel to the Jews FIRST (Acts 13:46). So, salvation through hearing the gospel came to the Jews first..........and then to the Gentiles!!!!

    Again, you miserably failed to understand a single verse.


    No. It has always been by grace that we are saved through faith. See Hebrews 11.
    The fall of the Jews is a demonstration of the mystery of the salvation of God, it does not literally meant that there were no Gentiles that were saved before the Jews fell into blindness. It is the same way of demonstrating God's salvation through circumcision that was given to Abraham and his children. You are misunderstanding the demonstration of the mystery of God's salvation.

    And that has nothing to do with the entire Jewish race apostatizing.
    The Jews had to fail, else the salvation would still belong to them....or else you make God unjust for failing to do his promises to them, even to David. Not only that, you would even make it unfair for God to punish the nation as a whole.

    You see, the gospel leads us to understand the "righteousness" of God (Rom 1:17). Presenting God as unjust in his salvation proves that you are misunderstanding the gospel.
    Last edited by FarEastBird; 10-29-2014, 07:53 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • FarEastBird
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    But FEB is mature enough to understand what no one else - or at least most of the rest of us - are just not spiritual enough to understand.
    The world is again blinded of the truth; this is what the prophesies says. The first resurrection had passed(Rev 20:6). When Christ came, those who believed in his word did not die(John 11:25, 5:24).


    But search what this prophesy meant:

    Isa 52:15
    15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

    Rom 15:21
    21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.


    I am waiting for the above prophesy to be fulfilled. If the Spirit of God is in you, the Spirit will tell you things to come.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill the Cat
    replied
    Agreed. His biblically illiterate eisegesis is nauseating.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Unsubscribing -- nothing of value here.

    Leave a comment:


  • FarEastBird
    replied
    Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
    But FEB is mature enough to understand what no one else - or at least most of the rest of us - are just not spiritual enough to understand.

    Knowledge of truth isn't judged by popularity.

    Paul said, "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

    If you judge me of something you do not know, how does that make you a judge? Judge me of things you know......not by popularity.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jedidiah
    replied
    Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
    Another point is that reading the Bible is the same as hearing the word of God in parables. It is different when you really understand those parables. Don't presume that you have the ability interpret the parables on your own. Even the prophets who prophesied and gave to us the OT did not truly understand the OT themselves, though the OT guides us to faith (Luke 10:24).
    But FEB is mature enough to understand what no one else - or at least most of the rest of us - are just not spiritual enough to understand.

    Leave a comment:


  • FarEastBird
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    I have no authority. I'm just repeating what the Bible says for the most part. Snark can be Biblical.
    Well, haven't you realized that the Jews have, for a long time, followed the word of God, and have never understood it; not until Christ came?

    Another point is that reading the Bible is the same as hearing the word of God in parables. It is different when you really understand those parables. Don't presume that you have the ability interpret the parables on your own. Even the prophets who prophesied and gave to us the OT did not truly understand the OT themselves, though the OT guides us to faith (Luke 10:24).

    Jesus himself explain to the disciples his parables, yet it was only after the Christ's resurrection when he revealed to them on how to understand the Scriptures. So, even if you may have a chance of getting correctly the parables, you may not be able to understand it's relation to the Scripture, or the gospel.


    I just want to know how it makes sense for another human to tell me that the message of salvation can only come directly from God and yet seems to be telling how to get saved? Explain this quandary, oh wise prophet.
    Understanding the gospel, comes with the ability to receive it. Part of the ability is to have the mental maturity. For example, a person can teach Calculus, but only those who are able can learn it.

    Do you think you can teach a person how to love? No, you can't. Yet part of getting to understand God is to know what love is. It is only God who can change our hearts. (((Search yourselves)))

    The law itself guides us until we come to faith. Yet many subject themselves to the law in most of their lives, but they do not really understand faith. Unless God gives the person the maturity of mind, and a changed heart, that person cannot find out the truth of God.

    So, understand from these things why I said that I cannot teach anyone, though, obviously, I am persuading you to come into the knowledge of God. And what I was saying above is the reason why we ought not to understand things by the letter, the word of God is enveloped in a matured mind, and a changed heart; without which one cannot perceive and understand the word as the word of faith.

    The irony of these is that if you have understood the salvation of Christ, you would not have asked me this. You know that Christ himself said that the salvation of man has nothing to do with man's will; so in turn you are questioning Christ who sent the apostles who told us to work out our salvation.

    But for your learning, the way to faith is to be schooled by the law. Just because the apostles tells us to work out our salvation, does not mean that they are not leading us to faith. No, rather, as I said in one of my post in this thread, and to paraphrase it accordingly in this discussion: the law should be given to us, so that we would come to know that we cannot justify ourselves through the law. And when we come to know that we are not able to justify ourselves through the law, that then we seek the other way of salvation, which is grace through faith.

    Now, one may think that I have explained already the salvation, and that when people accepted it they were saved. No, those who are elected were changed into a new creature; God had changed their hearts, and had given them maturity of mind. The reason people behave ill is because God had not changed their hearts. The reason why people believe their salvation is through faith and works, or of not having understanding between faith and works, is because God had not given them the maturity of mind.


    .

    Leave a comment:


  • Christianbookworm
    replied
    Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
    Don"t you remember what John said? "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

    Also, Jesus said, "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."

    Do you really believe that understanding the gospel is passed from words to words? You are mistaken, the reason you would not receive mine is because we are actually divided in wisdom. Man cannot pass wisdom to another. You can read the Scripture from cover to cover as many times as you want, but you will never ever learn from them unless God will give it to you.

    As for why I do these things, it is what I am called to do. But you received authority from men, or are working on your own will.
    I have no authority. I'm just repeating what the Bible says for the most part. Snark can be Biblical. I just want to know how it makes sense for another human to tell me that the message of salvation can only come directly from God and yet seems to be telling how to get saved? Explain this quandary, oh wise prophet.

    Leave a comment:


  • FarEastBird
    replied
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    If human will has nothing at all to do with salvation, then why are you telling us this stuff? If we can't do anything at all, then why bother?
    Don"t you remember what John said? "A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

    Also, Jesus said, "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."

    Do you really believe that understanding the gospel is passed from words to words? You are mistaken, the reason you would not receive mine is because we are actually divided in wisdom. Man cannot pass wisdom to another. You can read the Scripture from cover to cover as many times as you want, but you will never ever learn from them unless God will give it to you.

    As for why I do these things, it is what I am called to do. But you received authority from men, or are working on your own will.

    Leave a comment:

widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
Working...
X