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Which came first, Faith, or God's plan in Jesus?

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  • Which came first, Faith, or God's plan in Jesus?

    Which came first, Faith, or God's plan in Jesus
    What are the implications if Faith came first?
    What are the implications if God's plan came first?
    How God's omniscience play in these issues?
    ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
    ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
    https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

  • #2
    Not sure if there is even a "first" but rather there is one eternal now.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
      Not sure if there is even a "first" but rather there is one eternal now.
      Doesn't that will fall into pantheism?
      ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
      ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
      https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

      Comment


      • #4
        No, because God exists outside of the time He created which makes Him no dependent upon it.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
          No, because God exists outside of the time He created which makes Him no dependent upon it.
          I believe that pantheists will not have a problem in their view regardless of a distinction of the creator to his creation. What you did is just explain a part of God. Even in a metaphysical realm, what I thought would not really differ to who I am. Even when we consider God to be a mind (the closest we can speak of a transcendent being) yet we cannot make a sense with a mind that does not have ideas, and physical manifestations.

          But there is even greater problem with your belief; it is of how would you explain that man had a faith independent from God, that made God to had a plan in his first move on creation?

          My point is that the word "plan" in your worldview of godhead is actually nonsensical. Isn't it?
          ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
          ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
          https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
            Which came first, Faith, or God's plan in Jesus
            God's plan in Christ was in place prior to the creation. So it came first.


            Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
            What are the implications if God's plan came first? How God's omniscience play in these issues?
            Our ability to comprehend God is limited to what He chooses to reveal. His omniscience is always in play and always beyond our ability to define it.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
              No, because God exists outside of the time He created which makes Him no dependent upon it.
              God exists outside the time He created, but He exists in some state that we are not now and never will be able to fully comprehend.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • #8
                I fairly certain it was the egg, and everything else came after

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  God's plan in Christ was in place prior to the creation. So it came first.
                  Our ability to comprehend God is limited to what He chooses to reveal. His omniscience is always in play and always beyond our ability to define it.
                  Then the problem remains that to say God planned is nonsensical. You are admitting two concept of time here in which, I believe, the latter is your preferred meaning.

                  And to my understanding, you preferred the second concept of time because you cannot make a coherent reason of why God's planned came first from the first concept of time.

                  Our ability to comprehend God is limited to what He chooses to reveal. His omniscience is always in play and always beyond our ability to define it.

                  I can understand about our limited knowledge, but what is being revealed in a thing that is not coherent? It even confuses me of what time is.

                  On one hand, I can make an interpretation of the revelation which is reasonable and sound, so why would I take your word?

                  Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." And Isaiah says, " So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

                  So what is the point giving us incoherent words that, not only we cannot comprehend it, but we also don't know what it accomplishes.

                  If I will take your word, or your meaning of time, I'll have to throw away many things of what I understand about time, and consider them my delusions.
                  ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                  ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                  https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by IDScience View Post
                    I fairly certain it was the egg, and everything else came after
                    That's possible. Isn't it the angels existed before the heaven and the earth? And angels have "feathers," you know?
                    ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                    ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                    https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by FarEastBird View Post
                      And to my understanding, you preferred the second concept of time because you cannot make a coherent reason of why God's planned came first from the first concept of time.
                      Sorry this is mainly gibberish to me. I prefer the second because Scripture makes it clear to me.


                      I can understand about our limited knowledge, but what is being revealed in a thing that is not coherent? It even confuses me of what time is.

                      On one hand, I can make an interpretation of the revelation which is reasonable and sound, so why would I take your word?

                      Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." And Isaiah says, " So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

                      If I will take your word, or your meaning of time, I'll have to throw away many things of what I understand about time, and consider them my delusions.
                      Can you explain this to me? It does not seem reasonable.
                      Last edited by Jedidiah; 06-07-2014, 09:38 PM.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        1 peter 2:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
                        19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
                        20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yeah, Sparky. I should have quoted it perhaps.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            Sorry this is mainly gibberish to me. I prefer the second because Scripture makes it clear to me.
                            What you did is claim the word of God as mystery because you cannot understand it, and then you call me gibberish as if you have something you understand of the mystery you claim.

                            I can understand about our limited knowledge, but what is being revealed in a thing that is not coherent? It even confuses me of what time is.

                            On one hand, I can make an interpretation of the revelation which is reasonable and sound, so why would I take your word?

                            Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." And Isaiah says, " So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."
                            Can you explain this to me? It does not seem reasonable.
                            God has given us his words in order for us to be changed, and by this we cannot deny the fact that the event of change happens by sequence; that the past came before the future. But if you would claim that the reality is an "eternal now,"then I could not make sense between the difference of the past and the future. How can you "plan" if all aspect of time is "now?" How could I make sense that God truly planned without claiming that "now" is different of the "future?"
                            ...WISDOM giveth life to them that have it. (Ecclesiastes 7:12)
                            ...the ISLES shall wait for his law (Isaiah 42:4)
                            https://philippinesinprophecies.wordpress.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              "plan" seems to be YOUR word, FEB, and you are infusing it with your own meaning. So why are you asking others to debate some term you came up with and the meaning you infused it with?

                              The bible is clear that the Father ordained Jesus to be the savior before creating the world. That means it was already done. Not "planned" to be done. The only place time comes into the equation is that we live in a universe with time and the event had to take place at some time in the timeline of mankind because Jesus became one of us.

                              Hebrews 4:3
                              For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


                              2 Timothy 1:9
                              Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

                              God even chose us to belong to him before he even created the world.

                              Ephesians 1:4
                              According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love

                              Comment

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