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Chiefsinners Subduing Creation derail

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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    The points we studied are complex and need to be unpacked. A hard task, but believers have the Holy Spirit, have walked with Christ, so they can try to understand and succeed. But it's going to be tough to take all the points all at one time. If you are willing, let's go through the points one at a time. You can chose the order and then we can agree on a few ground rules or guide lines.
    You haven't answered the points I made already.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    The points we studied are complex and need to be unpacked. A hard task, but believers have the Holy Spirit, have walked with Christ, so they can try to understand and succeed. But it's going to be tough to take all the points all at one time. If you are willing, let's go through the points one at a time. You can chose the order and then we can agree on a few ground rules or guide lines.

    Leave a comment:


  • mossrose
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher
    The documents found in the Dead Sea cave prove Paul was not criticising salvation by works like Luther taught. It was rebuking entitlement, Jews thought God owed them special treatment because they were children of Abraham, through circumcision!
    That is total bull. Ephesians 2:8-9 alone disprove that. Written by Paul, even.

    “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”


    And Galatians 2:16. Also written by Paul.

    Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.


    You are full of heresy. Repent!

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    The dead sea scrolls are not the bible. Not that I think they say what you claim anyway. If you told me the sky was blue I would have to double check it for myself.

    I will go by what the bible actually says, not by what some old scroll says about it, nor what some "bible scholar" says that they say about the bible.

    And even IF the bible said that works are needed for salvation, YOUR idea of the "work" needed is not in the bible at all. It only exists in your head.

    And Paul clearly denounced the Jews "entitlement" elsewhere. Like in Romans 2, saying all that does is put you under the Law, and then he goes on to say why we are NOT under the Law and works, but under a new covenant, where we are credited the righteousness of Christ for our FAITH. Not works.

    Have you ever just read the bible? Instead of picking verses out here and there? Just sat down and read it from start to finish? Try it sometime.
    The points we studied are complex and need to be unpacked. A hard task, but believers have the Holy Spirit, have walked with Christ, so they can try to understand and succeed. But it's going to be tough to take all the points all at one time. If you are willing, let's go through the points one at a time. You can chose the order and then we can agree on a few ground rules or guide lines.
    Last edited by footwasher; 09-02-2020, 01:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    The documents found in the Dead Sea cave ...
    Caves. Numerous. At least 11.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    The documents found in the Dead Sea cave prove Paul was not criticising salvation by works like Luther taught. It was rebuking entitlement, Jews thought God owed them special treatment because they were children of Abraham, through circumcision!
    The dead sea scrolls are not the bible. Not that I think they say what you claim anyway. If you told me the sky was blue I would have to double check it for myself.

    I will go by what the bible actually says, not by what some old scroll says about it, nor what some "bible scholar" says that they say about the bible.

    And even IF the bible said that works are needed for salvation, YOUR idea of the "work" needed is not in the bible at all. It only exists in your head.

    And Paul clearly denounced the Jews "entitlement" elsewhere. Like in Romans 2, saying all that does is put you under the Law, and then he goes on to say why we are NOT under the Law and works, but under a new covenant, where we are credited the righteousness of Christ for our FAITH. Not works.

    Have you ever just read the bible? Instead of picking verses out here and there? Just sat down and read it from start to finish? Try it sometime.

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    No the bible has CONTEXT. You can't just rip out parts you want to use and use them with any other bits you pick out here and there and build your own theology. That is what you are doing. The bible is also recordings of historic events, that are just historic events, and don't have some secret meaning you have to find in the text.

    And the goal of God's plan is to restore his relationship with mankind and restore his creation. Then heaven will be on earth.


    That sounds more like Mormonism than Christianity. That is nowhere in the bible. We did not exist before we were conceived here on Earth.


    I have no idea why you went on this side track other than to try to change the subject from your own heretical views.




    what are you talking about?
    The documents found in the Dead Sea cave prove Paul was not criticising salvation by works like Luther taught. It was rebuking entitlement, Jews thought God owed them special treatment because they were children of Abraham, through circumcision! Bottomline, passing judgment for salvation will be according to works. James and Paul are not contradictory. Both teach faith without works is useless.

    Quote

    3. Final Judgment According to Works

    The third point is remarkably controversial, seeing how well founded it is at several points in Paul. Indeed, listening to yesterday’s papers, it seems that there has been a massive conspiracy of silence on something which was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.

    https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/...tives-on-paul/
    Last edited by footwasher; 09-02-2020, 01:41 PM.

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  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by footwasher View Post
    All the above points rest on the incredible view that the Bible is disjointed, has no continuity. What happened to the mandate to Adam to subdue, tame the earth? To the mission to restore it, when God promised Abraham his descendants would bless the world? Is your gospel that God wanted to make sure humanity went to heaven? Heaven is not the end of the world, the destination for humanity. God desired to express righteousness on earth, through obedience, reflected in the earth being subdued, because humanity was united with God. What you seem to have is Hellenistic dualism, Platonism, leaving the evil material body, freeing the good spirit to go to heaven:
    No the bible has CONTEXT. You can't just rip out parts you want to use and use them with any other bits you pick out here and there and build your own theology. That is what you are doing. The bible is also recordings of historic events, that are just historic events, and don't have some secret meaning you have to find in the text.

    And the goal of God's plan is to restore his relationship with mankind and restore his creation. Then heaven will be on earth.


    Quote
    One of the central stories of the Bible, many people believe, is that there is a heaven and an earth and that human souls have been exiled from heaven and are serving out time here on earth until they can return. Indeed, for most modern Christians, the idea of “going to heaven when you die” is not simply one belief among others, but the one that seems to give a point to it all.
    That sounds more like Mormonism than Christianity. That is nowhere in the bible. We did not exist before we were conceived here on Earth.

    But the people who believed in that kind of “heaven” when the New Testament was written were not the early Christians. They were the “Middle Platonists” — people like Plutarch (a younger contemporary of St Paul who was a philosopher, biographer, essayist and pagan priest in Delphi). To understand what the first followers of Jesus believed about what happens after death, we need to read the New Testament in its own world — the world of Jewish hope, of Roman imperialism and of Greek thought.

    https://time.com/5743505/new-testament-heaven/
    I have no idea why you went on this side track other than to try to change the subject from your own heretical views.


    Gosh you seem to be stuck in a theological Stone Age. At least keep up with the document findings of archaeologists, who give proof of what the 1st Century Ancient Near East believed in.
    what are you talking about?

    Leave a comment:


  • footwasher
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Why didn't God rescue Paul from his prison before he died there? Surely he could have accomplished more being free?


    There you go playing salad bar with the bible, assembling different verses out of context to make some point you made up.

    2 Cor 10 is Paul admonishing people who were heckling him. It had nothing to do with him actually being ineffective. You just ripped that out of context.

    Second, Paul praying to remove his thorn had nothing to do with 2 cor 10:10. You just slammed that together in your head.

    Act4:13 is another verse you cobbled into the mix that has nothing to do with Paul's thorn.

    What you are doing is being dishonest with the bible in order to further your own goals and beliefs. God will hold you responsible for misusing the bible.



    Woah. So you are saying that any Christian who dies of cancer wasn't a real Christian because they didn't "pick up their cross?" But you said something like Cancer would be the cross, the test. I have personally seen Christians who have cancer, stand up before the congregation, give praise to God, ask for the elders to anoint them and pray over them, and still die of cancer. So they picked up their cross and waited for God to rescue them, but God called them home instead. So you are wrong. That alone disproves your heretical view.




    But it isn't. And if it were, then it proves that the New Perspective is wrong.



    More bible word salad.




    The word subdued also means ruled. The creation would be ruled by Adam. At the beginning he was in a small part, the garden. If he had not sinned, he would have been given the rest of creation to rule over. I have already shown you the verse where it said that Creation fell with Adam. Fell from what? Perfection.






    That verse is saying Creation fell when God cursed it after Adam's sin. It was corrupted. which means that it had to be uncorrupted before.

    Gen 3:7 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

    “Cursed is the ground because of you;
    through painful toil you will eat food from it
    all the days of your life.
    18
    It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.
    19
    By the sweat of your brow
    you will eat your food
    until you return to the ground,
    since from it you were taken;
    for dust you are
    and to dust you will return.”



    Nonsense.





    What does any of that have to do with salvation? Not hardening hearts means just to be open to God. Not like the atheists on this site who's hearts are so hard they won't even listen to the gospel. If they have hard hearts they won't listen and will not be saved.

    And what does Joshua have to do with any of it? You keep reaching back into the OT for unconnected stories and shoehorning them into your odd heresy.






    That is YOUR baptism and gospel. Not the baptism and gospel preached in the bible.

    The only work required to be saved is to believe in Jesus.

    John 6:28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

    29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


    Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

    11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”





    You just quoted Jesus saying that we had to give up ALL of our possessions to follow him.


    So why haven't you done so? How can you pick up your cross and follow him unless you give up all of your possessions?




    That's just more word salad to avoid the question. You seem to think your idea, which you claim is a requirement to be saved, was hidden from the world for 2000 years. That makes God evil. He left out something vitally important to being saved from the bible till you figured it out. Meaning billions of Christians might be in hell right now because they didn't know what you know.


    Repent of your heresy and nonsense. Stop adding a burden to the gospel. Stop playing salad bar with the bible.
    All the above points rest on the incredible view that the Bible is disjointed, has no continuity. What happened to the mandate to Adam to subdue, tame the earth? To the mission to restore it, when God promised Abraham his descendants would bless the world? Is your gospel that God wanted to make sure humanity went to heaven? Heaven is not the end of the world, the destination for humanity. God desired to express righteousness on earth, through obedience, reflected in the earth being subdued, because humanity was united with God. What you seem to have is Hellenistic dualism, Platonism, leaving the evil material body, freeing the good spirit to go to heaven:

    Quote
    One of the central stories of the Bible, many people believe, is that there is a heaven and an earth and that human souls have been exiled from heaven and are serving out time here on earth until they can return. Indeed, for most modern Christians, the idea of “going to heaven when you die” is not simply one belief among others, but the one that seems to give a point to it all.

    But the people who believed in that kind of “heaven” when the New Testament was written were not the early Christians. They were the “Middle Platonists” — people like Plutarch (a younger contemporary of St Paul who was a philosopher, biographer, essayist and pagan priest in Delphi). To understand what the first followers of Jesus believed about what happens after death, we need to read the New Testament in its own world — the world of Jewish hope, of Roman imperialism and of Greek thought.

    https://time.com/5743505/new-testament-heaven/

    Gosh you seem to be stuck in a theological Stone Age. At least keep up with the document findings of archaeologists, who give proof of what the 1st Century Ancient Near East believed in.

    It boils down to this: Is the teaching about a tower to be built and an army to be faced, the test for the believer, for which faith has been built up through the Holy Spirit?

    Luke 10:13"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented
    Last edited by footwasher; 09-02-2020, 01:30 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post

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  • mossrose
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    You're just a milk baby, moss, and need to hang around for him to edjeecate you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by mossrose View Post
    Footwasher sure is preaching a different Jesus and a different gospel. He is, indeed, a false teacher.
    You're just a milk baby, moss, and need to hang around for him to edjeecate you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Cow Poke
    replied
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    Looks like he died recently.
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was in our Memorial Garden.

    So what was your debate about and who won?
    He had worded something making it sound like Baptism was required for salvation.

    After several back-and-forths, he clarified what he meant, and apologized that what he said could be taken to mean that baptism saves.
    It was one of those "I'm sorry if you misunderstood" kinda things.

    That was long ago, so I have that in paper files, not digital.

    Later, when I found out he was really "somebody", I was a little surprised he took the time to answer my challenge.

    Leave a comment:


  • mossrose
    replied
    Footwasher sure is preaching a different Jesus and a different gospel. He is, indeed, a false teacher.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sparko
    replied
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    A British theologian known for coming up with some rather "out there" theology. He was really into the NPP, along with Sanders and Wright.

    I actually had a little debate/battle with him in the Southern Baptist paper, not knowing he was a heavyweight. LONG time ago.
    Looks like he died recently.

    So what was your debate about and who won?

    Leave a comment:

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