Chiefsinners Subduing Creation derail

[footwasher]

So you think God will always rescue a believer? Then why didn't he rescue Paul from the Romans? Why didn't he take away Paul's thorn in his side? Why do good Christians end up dying of cancer?

The only thing God promises to rescue us from is our sin. The rest is his decision and his plan. Sometimes he will indeed rescue the believer, other times his "grace is enough" - and other times it is time to call the believer home.

God rescued Paul from the Jews BY delivering him into the hands of the Romans. The Romans released him, but he refused to be released. Paul WANTED to be persecuted, so he insisted on his rights as a Roman citizen to remain in custody. This is the man who responded to a prophecy of danger by insisting on entering Jerusalem. The sin that is reported in Heb 4:2 is that they did not believe God’s teaching, that He would always rescue, like Caleb did.

Hebrews 4:2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Paul had a problem with image, he appeared to be ineffective in person:

2 Corinthians 10:10For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but his physical presence is unimpressive, and his speaking is of no account.”

He prayed to overcome this weakness, but God said His power would be more effectively displayed BECAUSE Paul looked bad:

Acts 4:13When they saw the boldness of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and recognized that they had been with Jesus.

I’m going out on a limb, but let’s see if God saves my neck here too!

As for why good Christians die of cancer, the promise applies to those picking up a cross to glorify God, joining God in union, in front of witnesses. That’s why Israel going out to face the Amorites without God was a testing of Him, a gratuitous display of the power they thought they had, which Jesus refused to do, in jumping off a high place.

ok I just looked up the New Perspective from the link Cow Poke gave. It sounds like works based salvation to me. But the whole "subdue creation" and "God will always rescue the believer" sounds like that is all you. Correct?

I already mentioned my views are a logical conclusion of the Perspective. Wright emphasizes the good works, others on faithfulness, in picking up our cross, to draw the world to God, extract praises to Him. Both are required, sometimes both are the same. Wright never explains Luke 14:33, he may believe his readers are not ready for it. However NTW wrote this on martyrdom:

Quote
Acts for Everyone

"…the point at which a person stands at the very threshold of heaven and earth, still in earth but called to give up their life for the faith, is the point where they may for a moment be in a position where they can, as it were, see both dimensions of reality, and speak about the normally hidden one to the people who cannot yet see it for themselves.”

John 10:3Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

Say what? Creation was perfect when God made it. It was good. It only became imperfect after the fall and when God cursed it.

If something is perfected, tamed, fulfilled, why does it need to be subdued?

That is NOT what the verse is saying. You are reading into it again.

Romans 8:19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Paraphrase
Because the hope of humanity is to see God’s great works displayed in the sons of God. Because humanity was left to futile existence (being born, living, then dying, perishing through corruption and decay, without achieving anything), for the purpose of being transformed, fulfilled, by becoming just like the children of God.

Well if NT Wright believes the "new perspective" as you and that wiki page claims, then he is wrong. very wrong.

Then write a book and watch it sink into oblivion, like those links you saw, which repeats what appeared in the immediate rebuttal to Wright, Carson’s 'Justification and Variegated Nomism', and which was also panned, publicly, and disappeared, while Wright’s works flourish.

This is why you are unorthodox. You are adding to the gospel. Adding your own conditions on salvation. Stuff you just made up.

Well the standard baptismal confession is to give up the works of the devil. Definitely some action is required. By your definition, even Arminianism is unorthodox.

Sure you have to change your loyalty from the world to Christ. You no longer belong to the world, but to God's Kingdom. There is no "test" you have to pass before you are saved.

7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,


So what is the response advised above, and in what situation, at which command, to mature believers? Why does the text say there remains a Rest, inspite of Joshua obeying God’s voice? How did Joshua differ from the rest of Israel, since all were baptised into drinking from the Rock? Why could Joshua not lead into Rest?

You have to know you are a sinner and want forgiveness, then call upon God to save you through Jesus' sacrifice. You "change sides" from the world to God's side. He is your king. Your life is committed to him. That's it. You are saved. You could drop dead right after praying for salvation and you would be in heaven. You don't even HAVE to be baptized. Baptism is a ceremony where you basically show the world your loyalty to Christ. If you are a Christian you will obey and be baptized. But if you can't be baptized you are still saved.

That is John’s baptism. Baptism in Jesus’s name is believing His teaching, that you can be saved, fulfill the reason for your creation, become a blessing to the world, by entering the Kingdom, by picking up your cross daily and being rescued, by being born again, by not forgetting God’s great works, by being baptised, by believing His teaching.

So did you give up all of your possessions? How are you communicating on Tweb without a phone or a computer?

I already said that Ananias and Sapphira did not have to give up all their possessions. Each one of us must check if the great works God did after baptism has built up our confidence in turning to be depending on God and away from depending on possessions. If not, we must be honest and ask for terms of peace.

What view on what title? "Heaven is important, but it's not the end of the world." -- N.T. Wright? That? We thought it was a clever quote. It doesn't mean we follow NT Wright as some guru.

Then why honour him? Why don’t you put “It is what it is”? That’s cool too.

You seem to be wandering again.

Well you seem to think it’s worthy of analysis and discussion here:

Wait you think that God left out how to be saved from the bible because of the parable of the blind man? So YOU could discover it 2000 years later? Meaning everyone else got it wrong all that time and are probably in hell? You seem to think very highly of yourself for using such a humble name

Scripture says God’s works and words were given opportunities to be displayed by creating calamities and confusion:

Isaiah 45:7other. 7I form light and create darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things. 8Drip down, O heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness. Let the earth open up that salvation may sprout and righteousness spring up with it; I, the LORD, have created it.

The opening up of Scripture is always given to those who have entered eternal dwellings, since that Rest was made available. No one is in hell for getting it wrong. They are perishing because they refused to obey what God commanded after they sought God and found Him.

Acts 17:29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination.

How can I think highly of myself when it is God’s grace being responsible for displaying God’s glory in me?

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful response, which contributed to the discussion. You'll never know the full extent of the food I got out of it, but it was substantial, for which i'm grateful.

[Cow Poke]

God rescued Paul from the Jews BY delivering him into the hands of the Romans. The Romans released him, but he refused to be released. Paul WANTED to be persecuted, so he insisted on his rights as a Roman citizen to remain in custody....

prosecuted

[Sparko]

By the way, James Dunn is behind a lot of this "New Perspective" stuff.

Who's that?

[Cow Poke]

Who's that?

A British theologian known for coming up with some rather "out there" theology. He was really into the NPP, along with Sanders and Wright.

I actually had a little debate/battle with him in the Southern Baptist paper, not knowing he was a heavyweight. LONG time ago.

[Sparko]

God rescued Paul from the Jews BY delivering him into the hands of the Romans. The Romans released him, but he refused to be released. Paul WANTED to be persecuted, so he insisted on his rights as a Roman citizen to remain in custody. This is the man who responded to a prophecy of danger by insisting on entering Jerusalem. The sin that is reported in Heb 4:2 is that they did not believe God’s teaching, that He would always rescue, like Caleb did.

Why didn't God rescue Paul from his prison before he died there? Surely he could have accomplished more being free?

Hebrews 4:2For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.

Paul had a problem with image, he appeared to be ineffective in person:

2 Corinthians 10:10For some say, “His letters are weighty and forceful, but his physical presence is unimpressive, and his speaking is of no account.”

He prayed to overcome this weakness, but God said His power would be more effectively displayed BECAUSE Paul looked bad:

Acts 4:13When they saw the boldness of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and recognized that they had been with Jesus.

There you go playing salad bar with the bible, assembling different verses out of context to make some point you made up.

2 Cor 10 is Paul admonishing people who were heckling him. It had nothing to do with him actually being ineffective. You just ripped that out of context.

Second, Paul praying to remove his thorn had nothing to do with 2 cor 10:10. You just slammed that together in your head.

Act4:13 is another verse you cobbled into the mix that has nothing to do with Paul's thorn.

What you are doing is being dishonest with the bible in order to further your own goals and beliefs. God will hold you responsible for misusing the bible.

I’m going out on a limb, but let’s see if God saves my neck here too!

As for why good Christians die of cancer, the promise applies to those picking up a cross to glorify God, joining God in union, in front of witnesses. That’s why Israel going out to face the Amorites without God was a testing of Him, a gratuitous display of the power they thought they had, which Jesus refused to do, in jumping off a high place.

Woah. So you are saying that any Christian who dies of cancer wasn't a real Christian because they didn't "pick up their cross?" But you said something like Cancer would be the cross, the test. I have personally seen Christians who have cancer, stand up before the congregation, give praise to God, ask for the elders to anoint them and pray over them, and still die of cancer. So they picked up their cross and waited for God to rescue them, but God called them home instead. So you are wrong. That alone disproves your heretical view.

I already mentioned my views are a logical conclusion of the Perspective.

But it isn't. And if it were, then it proves that the New Perspective is wrong.

Wright emphasizes the good works, others on faithfulness, in picking up our cross, to draw the world to God, extract praises to Him. Both are required, sometimes both are the same. Wright never explains Luke 14:33, he may believe his readers are not ready for it. However NTW wrote this on martyrdom:

Quote
Acts for Everyone

"…the point at which a person stands at the very threshold of heaven and earth, still in earth but called to give up their life for the faith, is the point where they may for a moment be in a position where they can, as it were, see both dimensions of reality, and speak about the normally hidden one to the people who cannot yet see it for themselves.”

John 10:3Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"

More bible word salad.

If something is perfected, tamed, fulfilled, why does it need to be subdued?

The word subdued also means ruled. The creation would be ruled by Adam. At the beginning he was in a small part, the garden. If he had not sinned, he would have been given the rest of creation to rule over. I have already shown you the verse where it said that Creation fell with Adam. Fell from what? Perfection.

Romans 8:19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Paraphrase
Because the hope of humanity is to see God’s great works displayed in the sons of God. Because humanity was left to futile existence (being born, living, then dying, perishing through corruption and decay, without achieving anything), for the purpose of being transformed, fulfilled, by becoming just like the children of God.

That verse is saying Creation fell when God cursed it after Adam's sin. It was corrupted. which means that it had to be uncorrupted before.

Gen 3:7 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

Well the standard baptismal confession is to give up the works of the devil. Definitely some action is required. By your definition, even Arminianism is unorthodox.

Nonsense.

7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,


So what is the response advised above, and in what situation, at which command, to mature believers? Why does the text say there remains a Rest, inspite of Joshua obeying God’s voice? How did Joshua differ from the rest of Israel, since all were baptised into drinking from the Rock? Why could Joshua not lead into Rest?

What does any of that have to do with salvation? Not hardening hearts means just to be open to God. Not like the atheists on this site who's hearts are so hard they won't even listen to the gospel. If they have hard hearts they won't listen and will not be saved.

And what does Joshua have to do with any of it? You keep reaching back into the OT for unconnected stories and shoehorning them into your odd heresy.

That is John’s baptism. Baptism in Jesus’s name is believing His teaching, that you can be saved, fulfill the reason for your creation, become a blessing to the world, by entering the Kingdom, by picking up your cross daily and being rescued, by being born again, by not forgetting God’s great works, by being baptised, by believing His teaching.

That is YOUR baptism and gospel. Not the baptism and gospel preached in the bible.

The only work required to be saved is to believe in Jesus.

John 6:28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

I already said that Ananias and Sapphira did not have to give up all their possessions. Each one of us must check if the great works God did after baptism has built up our confidence in turning to be depending on God and away from depending on possessions. If not, we must be honest and ask for terms of peace.

You just quoted Jesus saying that we had to give up ALL of our possessions to follow him.

You must understand that this teaching would empty a church in a jiffy. Have you wondered why there is not even a single honest commentary about Luke 14:33?

"So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.

So why haven't you done so? How can you pick up your cross and follow him unless you give up all of your possessions?

Scripture says God’s works and words were given opportunities to be displayed by creating calamities and confusion:

Isaiah 45:7other. 7I form light and create darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things. 8Drip down, O heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness. Let the earth open up that salvation may sprout and righteousness spring up with it; I, the LORD, have created it.

The opening up of Scripture is always given to those who have entered eternal dwellings, since that Rest was made available. No one is in hell for getting it wrong. They are perishing because they refused to obey what God commanded after they sought God and found Him.

Acts 17:29Therefore, being offspring of God, we should not think that the Divine Being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by man’s skill and imagination.

How can I think highly of myself when it is God’s grace being responsible for displaying God’s glory in me?

That's just more word salad to avoid the question. You seem to think your idea, which you claim is a requirement to be saved, was hidden from the world for 2000 years. That makes God evil. He left out something vitally important to being saved from the bible till you figured it out. Meaning billions of Christians might be in hell right now because they didn't know what you know.

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful response, which contributed to the discussion. You'll never know the full extent of the food I got out of it, but it was substantial, for which i'm grateful.

Repent of your heresy and nonsense. Stop adding a burden to the gospel. Stop playing salad bar with the bible.

[Sparko]

A British theologian known for coming up with some rather "out there" theology. He was really into the NPP, along with Sanders and Wright.

I actually had a little debate/battle with him in the Southern Baptist paper, not knowing he was a heavyweight. LONG time ago.

Looks like he died recently.

So what was your debate about and who won?

[mossrose]

Footwasher sure is preaching a different Jesus and a different gospel. He is, indeed, a false teacher.

[Cow Poke]

Looks like he died recently.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he was in our Memorial Garden.

So what was your debate about and who won?

He had worded something making it sound like Baptism was required for salvation.

After several back-and-forths, he clarified what he meant, and apologized that what he said could be taken to mean that baptism saves.
It was one of those "I'm sorry if you misunderstood" kinda things.

That was long ago, so I have that in paper files, not digital.

Later, when I found out he was really "somebody", I was a little surprised he took the time to answer my challenge.

[Cow Poke]

Footwasher sure is preaching a different Jesus and a different gospel. He is, indeed, a false teacher.

You're just a milk baby, moss, and need to hang around for him to edjeecate you.

[mossrose]

You're just a milk baby, moss, and need to hang around for him to edjeecate you.

[Cow Poke]

[footwasher]

Why didn't God rescue Paul from his prison before he died there? Surely he could have accomplished more being free?


There you go playing salad bar with the bible, assembling different verses out of context to make some point you made up.

2 Cor 10 is Paul admonishing people who were heckling him. It had nothing to do with him actually being ineffective. You just ripped that out of context.

Second, Paul praying to remove his thorn had nothing to do with 2 cor 10:10. You just slammed that together in your head.

Act4:13 is another verse you cobbled into the mix that has nothing to do with Paul's thorn.

What you are doing is being dishonest with the bible in order to further your own goals and beliefs. God will hold you responsible for misusing the bible.



Woah. So you are saying that any Christian who dies of cancer wasn't a real Christian because they didn't "pick up their cross?" But you said something like Cancer would be the cross, the test. I have personally seen Christians who have cancer, stand up before the congregation, give praise to God, ask for the elders to anoint them and pray over them, and still die of cancer. So they picked up their cross and waited for God to rescue them, but God called them home instead. So you are wrong. That alone disproves your heretical view.




But it isn't. And if it were, then it proves that the New Perspective is wrong.



More bible word salad.




The word subdued also means ruled. The creation would be ruled by Adam. At the beginning he was in a small part, the garden. If he had not sinned, he would have been given the rest of creation to rule over. I have already shown you the verse where it said that Creation fell with Adam. Fell from what? Perfection.






That verse is saying Creation fell when God cursed it after Adam's sin. It was corrupted. which means that it had to be uncorrupted before.

Gen 3:7 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”



Nonsense.





What does any of that have to do with salvation? Not hardening hearts means just to be open to God. Not like the atheists on this site who's hearts are so hard they won't even listen to the gospel. If they have hard hearts they won't listen and will not be saved.

And what does Joshua have to do with any of it? You keep reaching back into the OT for unconnected stories and shoehorning them into your odd heresy.






That is YOUR baptism and gospel. Not the baptism and gospel preached in the bible.

The only work required to be saved is to believe in Jesus.

John 6:28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”


Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”





You just quoted Jesus saying that we had to give up ALL of our possessions to follow him.


So why haven't you done so? How can you pick up your cross and follow him unless you give up all of your possessions?




That's just more word salad to avoid the question. You seem to think your idea, which you claim is a requirement to be saved, was hidden from the world for 2000 years. That makes God evil. He left out something vitally important to being saved from the bible till you figured it out. Meaning billions of Christians might be in hell right now because they didn't know what you know.


Repent of your heresy and nonsense. Stop adding a burden to the gospel. Stop playing salad bar with the bible.

All the above points rest on the incredible view that the Bible is disjointed, has no continuity. What happened to the mandate to Adam to subdue, tame the earth? To the mission to restore it, when God promised Abraham his descendants would bless the world? Is your gospel that God wanted to make sure humanity went to heaven? Heaven is not the end of the world, the destination for humanity. God desired to express righteousness on earth, through obedience, reflected in the earth being subdued, because humanity was united with God. What you seem to have is Hellenistic dualism, Platonism, leaving the evil material body, freeing the good spirit to go to heaven:

Quote
One of the central stories of the Bible, many people believe, is that there is a heaven and an earth and that human souls have been exiled from heaven and are serving out time here on earth until they can return. Indeed, for most modern Christians, the idea of “going to heaven when you die” is not simply one belief among others, but the one that seems to give a point to it all.

But the people who believed in that kind of “heaven” when the New Testament was written were not the early Christians. They were the “Middle Platonists” — people like Plutarch (a younger contemporary of St Paul who was a philosopher, biographer, essayist and pagan priest in Delphi). To understand what the first followers of Jesus believed about what happens after death, we need to read the New Testament in its own world — the world of Jewish hope, of Roman imperialism and of Greek thought.

https://time.com/5743505/new-testament-heaven/

Gosh you seem to be stuck in a theological Stone Age. At least keep up with the document findings of archaeologists, who give proof of what the 1st Century Ancient Near East believed in.

It boils down to this: Is the teaching about a tower to be built and an army to be faced, the test for the believer, for which faith has been built up through the Holy Spirit?

Luke 10:13"Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented

[Sparko]

All the above points rest on the incredible view that the Bible is disjointed, has no continuity. What happened to the mandate to Adam to subdue, tame the earth? To the mission to restore it, when God promised Abraham his descendants would bless the world? Is your gospel that God wanted to make sure humanity went to heaven? Heaven is not the end of the world, the destination for humanity. God desired to express righteousness on earth, through obedience, reflected in the earth being subdued, because humanity was united with God. What you seem to have is Hellenistic dualism, Platonism, leaving the evil material body, freeing the good spirit to go to heaven:

No the bible has CONTEXT. You can't just rip out parts you want to use and use them with any other bits you pick out here and there and build your own theology. That is what you are doing. The bible is also recordings of historic events, that are just historic events, and don't have some secret meaning you have to find in the text.

And the goal of God's plan is to restore his relationship with mankind and restore his creation. Then heaven will be on earth.

Quote
One of the central stories of the Bible, many people believe, is that there is a heaven and an earth and that human souls have been exiled from heaven and are serving out time here on earth until they can return. Indeed, for most modern Christians, the idea of “going to heaven when you die” is not simply one belief among others, but the one that seems to give a point to it all.

That sounds more like Mormonism than Christianity. That is nowhere in the bible. We did not exist before we were conceived here on Earth.

But the people who believed in that kind of “heaven” when the New Testament was written were not the early Christians. They were the “Middle Platonists” — people like Plutarch (a younger contemporary of St Paul who was a philosopher, biographer, essayist and pagan priest in Delphi). To understand what the first followers of Jesus believed about what happens after death, we need to read the New Testament in its own world — the world of Jewish hope, of Roman imperialism and of Greek thought.

https://time.com/5743505/new-testament-heaven/

I have no idea why you went on this side track other than to try to change the subject from your own heretical views.

Gosh you seem to be stuck in a theological Stone Age. At least keep up with the document findings of archaeologists, who give proof of what the 1st Century Ancient Near East believed in.

what are you talking about?

[footwasher]

No the bible has CONTEXT. You can't just rip out parts you want to use and use them with any other bits you pick out here and there and build your own theology. That is what you are doing. The bible is also recordings of historic events, that are just historic events, and don't have some secret meaning you have to find in the text.

And the goal of God's plan is to restore his relationship with mankind and restore his creation. Then heaven will be on earth.


That sounds more like Mormonism than Christianity. That is nowhere in the bible. We did not exist before we were conceived here on Earth.


I have no idea why you went on this side track other than to try to change the subject from your own heretical views.




what are you talking about?

The documents found in the Dead Sea cave prove Paul was not criticising salvation by works like Luther taught. It was rebuking entitlement, Jews thought God owed them special treatment because they were children of Abraham, through circumcision! Bottomline, passing judgment for salvation will be according to works. James and Paul are not contradictory. Both teach faith without works is useless.

Quote

3. Final Judgment According to Works

The third point is remarkably controversial, seeing how well founded it is at several points in Paul. Indeed, listening to yesterday’s papers, it seems that there has been a massive conspiracy of silence on something which was quite clear for Paul (as indeed for Jesus). Paul, in company with mainstream second-Temple Judaism, affirms that God’s final judgment will be in accordance with the entirety of a life led – in accordance, in other words, with works. He says this clearly and unambiguously in Romans 14.10–12 and 2 Corinthians 5.10. He affirms it in that terrifying passage about church-builders in 1 Corinthians 3. But the main passage in question is of course Romans 2.1–16.

https://ntwrightpage.com/2016/07/12/...tives-on-paul/

[Sparko]

The documents found in the Dead Sea cave prove Paul was not criticising salvation by works like Luther taught. It was rebuking entitlement, Jews thought God owed them special treatment because they were children of Abraham, through circumcision!

The dead sea scrolls are not the bible. Not that I think they say what you claim anyway. If you told me the sky was blue I would have to double check it for myself.

I will go by what the bible actually says, not by what some old scroll says about it, nor what some "bible scholar" says that they say about the bible.

And even IF the bible said that works are needed for salvation, YOUR idea of the "work" needed is not in the bible at all. It only exists in your head.

And Paul clearly denounced the Jews "entitlement" elsewhere. Like in Romans 2, saying all that does is put you under the Law, and then he goes on to say why we are NOT under the Law and works, but under a new covenant, where we are credited the righteousness of Christ for our FAITH. Not works.

Have you ever just read the bible? Instead of picking verses out here and there? Just sat down and read it from start to finish? Try it sometime.