// Required code

Announcement

Collapse

Unorthodox Theology 201 Guidelines

Theists only.

This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

The second purpose will be for threads on subjects, which although the thread starter has no issue with the above doctrines, the subject matter is so very outside the bounds of normative Christian doctrine totally within the leadership's discretion that it is placed here. In so doing, no judgment or offense is intended to be placed on the belief of said person in the above-doctrines. In this case "unorthodox" is used in a much looser sense of "outside the norms" - Examples of such threads would be pro-polygamy, pro-drug use, proponents of gay Christian churches, proponents of abortion.

The third purpose is for persons who wish to have input from any and all who would claim the title of Christian even on subjects that would be considered "orthodox."

The philosophy behind this area was to recognize that there are persons who would identify themselves as Christian and thus seem out of place in the Comparative Religions Forum, but yet in keeping with our committment here to certain basic core Christian doctrines. Also, it allows threads to be started by those who would want to still be identified as Christian with a particular belief that while not denying an essential is of such a nature that the discussion on that issue belongs in this section or for threads by persons who wish such a non-restricted discussion.


Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

The Nag Hammadi (Gnostic Christian AstroTheology)

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The Nag Hammadi (Gnostic Christian AstroTheology)

    The Nag Hammadi is a collection of workings found in 1945 Egypt applying to Christian Astrotheology(Applying to the cosmos and astral realms or heavenly realms). They get into the origins of the realm and the creation of the world. The basis of the Nag Hammadi seems to be a half literal and half symbolic. The Archon section is a very interesting section. Archons are also known as the demigods or Djinns of Islam. The story seems to signify the descent of energy or astral energy trapped in physical matter. Some believe earth existed as an astral object which fell into physical matter.

    Writings of creative and redemptive mythology, including Gnostic alternative versions of creation and salvation: The Apocryphon of John; The Hypostasis of the Archons; On the Origin of the World; The Apocalypse of Adam; The Paraphrase of Shem. (For an in-depth discussion of these, see the Archive commentary on Genesis and Gnosis.)

    Observations and commentaries on diverse Gnostic themes, such as the nature of reality, the nature of the soul, the relationship of the soul to the world: The Gospel of Truth; The Treatise on the Resurrection; The Tripartite Tractate; Eugnostos the Blessed; The Second Treatise of the Great Seth; The Teachings of Silvanus; The Testimony of Truth.

    Liturgical and initiatory texts: The Discourse on the Eighth and Ninth; The Prayer of Thanksgiving; A Valentinian Exposition; The Three Steles of Seth; The Prayer of the Apostle Paul. (The Gospel of Philip, listed under the sixth category below, has great relevance here also, for it is in effect a treatise on Gnostic sacramental theology).

    Writings dealing primarily with the feminine deific and spiritual principle, particularly with the Divine Sophia: The Thunder, Perfect Mind; The Thought of Norea; The Sophia of Jesus Christ; The Exegesis on the Soul.

    Writings pertaining to the lives and experiences of some of the apostles: The Apocalypse of Peter; The Letter of Peter to Philip; The Acts of Peter and the Twelve Apostles; The (First) Apocalypse of James; The (Second) Apocalypse of James, The Apocalypse of Paul.

    Scriptures which contain sayings of Jesus as well as descriptions of incidents in His life: The Dialogue of the Saviour; The Book of Thomas the Contender; The Apocryphon of James; The Gospel of Philip; The Gospel of Thomas.
    http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl.html

  • #2
    I've read the Nag Hammadi texts. They're a mishmash of incompatible systems; applying one's own fanciful post-modern interpretation isn't helpful. They have nothing whatever to do with Islam, for example.
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
    sigpic
    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

    Comment


    • #3
      JohnHermes, you might want to split this discussion up by individual texts in different threads to facilitate discussion.
      "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
      Hear my cry, hear my shout,
      Save me, save me"

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by guacamole View Post
        JohnHermes, you might want to split this discussion up by individual texts in different threads to facilitate discussion.
        I don't think that will be necessary.
        I am Punkinhead.

        "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

        ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

        Comment


        • #5
          Good idea. I might continuously add texts and we can discuss the matters. Yes, but Islam has its own of esoteric aspects to it but doesn't have that gnostic info like the Nag Hammadi does. But to me the Abrahamic Religions all follow the Nag Hammadi including Islams. Djinns would be equivalent to the archons of the Nag hammadi. We're just giving different names for the same thing. For example the "shamans" don't call archons, archons. They call them 'fliers".

          It's not necessary, but more organized? I'll maybe take whole sections of the Nag Hammadi and leave them up for discussion. We'll see how this thread does.
          Last edited by JohnHermes; 03-07-2019, 07:47 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by JohnHermes View Post
            Good idea. I might continuously add texts and we can discuss the matters. Yes, but Islam has its own of esoteric aspects to it but doesn't have that gnostic info like the Nag Hammadi does. But to me the Abrahamic Religions all follow the Nag Hammadi including Islams. Djinns would be equivalent to the archons of the Nag hammadi. We're just giving different names for the same thing. For example the "shamans" don't call archons, archons. They call them 'fliers".

            It's not necessary, but more organized? I'll maybe take whole sections of the Nag Hammadi and leave them up for discussion. We'll see how this thread does.
            Djinni are not remotely equivalent to the archons of the Nag Hammadi. Neither do the "Abrahamic Religions" remotely follow the Nag Hammadi; that they follow a disparate collection of texts buried for 1500 years or so, many of which are uniquely attested in such collection, is beyond ridiculous.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
            sigpic
            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              Djinni are not remotely equivalent to the archons of the Nag Hammadi. Neither do the "Abrahamic Religions" remotely follow the Nag Hammadi; that they follow a disparate collection of texts buried for 1500 years or so, many of which are uniquely attested in such collection, is beyond ridiculous.
              I agree, but it might be worth offering an explanation as to why historians have come to this conclusion?
              "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
              Hear my cry, hear my shout,
              Save me, save me"

              Comment


              • #8
                Sorry....wrong thread.
                Last edited by DesertBerean; 03-08-2019, 09:58 AM.
                Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DesertBerean View Post
                  I agree with this....but please remember we DO have rules about post lengths on this forum. Not only is it bad manners, it makes it very very difficult to discuss key points.
                  Did... did you just call OBP long winded?
                  "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                  Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                  Save me, save me"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                    Did... did you just call OBP long winded?
                    Yeah...sorry...wrong thread.
                    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                      I agree, but it might be worth offering an explanation as to why historians have come to this conclusion?
                      Not sure what historians have to do with it. The archons of the Nag Hammadi are generally wholly spiritual beings uncontaminated by interaction with matter, which is the creation of a confused offspring of Sophia. Djinni are known because of their interaction with the created world, so... totally different concept. A quick perusal of the Nag Hammadi texts would show that they're wholly unrelated to mainstream Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and have a tenuous connection at best to kabala/sufiism. There may be a slight link to Islam, if only because Mohammed's ideas of Judaism and Christianity tended to come from unorthodox sources.
                      Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                      Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                      sigpic
                      I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                        Not sure what historians have to do with it.
                        Historians try to formulate explanations as to why a fairly diverse set of texts ended up together, because they don't necessarily represent a singular world view.

                        The archons of the Nag Hammadi are generally wholly spiritual beings uncontaminated by interaction with matter, which is the creation of a confused offspring of Sophia. Djinni are known because of their interaction with the created world, so... totally different concept.
                        A useful distinction. I was of the impression that "djin" do not appear in the library, by word or description.

                        A quick perusal of the Nag Hammadi texts would show that they're wholly unrelated to mainstream Judaism, Christianity and Islam, and have a tenuous connection at best to kabala/sufiism. There may be a slight link to Islam, if only because Mohammed's ideas of Judaism and Christianity tended to come from unorthodox sources.
                        Wholly unrelated? I agree that they don't represent orthodox Christianity, but surely they give some light on the formation of early Christian belief.

                        fwiw,
                        guacamole
                        Last edited by guacamole; 03-08-2019, 12:35 PM.
                        "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                        Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                        Save me, save me"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                          Historians try to formulate explanations as to why a fairly diverse set of texts ended up together, because they don't necessarily represent a singular world view.
                          From what I recall, the best guess is that the collector simply found them interesting to read, and got buried instead of destroyed during Theophilus patriarch of Alexandria's crackdown on Origenism c. 400.
                          Wholly unrelated? I agree that they don't represent orthodox Christianity, but surely they give some light on the formation of early Christian belief.
                          They shed some light on beliefs which were rejected early on as not normative and did not survive such rejection. There is no indication that any of those beliefs were widespread. There is no indication, other than unsupported assertions here and there of it being material handed down in secret, that the material can be linked to the apostolic kerygma. The most celebrated work found in the collection, the Gospel of Thomas, is arguably dependent on the Diatesseron of Tatian, which would mark it firmly as pseudepigraphic.
                          Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                          Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                          sigpic
                          I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            From what I recall, the best guess is that the collector simply found them interesting to read, and got buried instead of destroyed during Theophilus patriarch of Alexandria's crackdown on Origenism c. 400.
                            I read another that guessed that they were from a nearby monastery or religious community that purged heretical texts but didn't want to destroy them.

                            They shed some light on beliefs which were rejected early on as not normative and did not survive such rejection. There is no indication that any of those beliefs were widespread. There is no indication, other than unsupported assertions here and there of it being material handed down in secret, that the material can be linked to the apostolic kerygma. The most celebrated work found in the collection, the Gospel of Thomas, is arguably dependent on the Diatesseron of Tatian, which would mark it firmly as pseudepigraphic.
                            By formulation, I meant hinting at the processes you have described here. I suppose "widespread" would be in the eye of the beholder--there was an audience wide enough to justify the economics of scribal work. Valentinus was regarded as enough of a threat that he is directly addressed by church fathers.

                            I do not want to give the impression that I think the Gnostics were as widespread as orthodox Christians.
                            "Down in the lowlands, where the water is deep,
                            Hear my cry, hear my shout,
                            Save me, save me"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by guacamole View Post
                              I read another that guessed that they were from a nearby monastery or religious community that purged heretical texts but didn't want to destroy them.
                              That's more or less what I was getting at with the second part of my response; it doesn't address why disparate texts were bound together.
                              By formulation, I meant hinting at the processes you have described here. I suppose "widespread" would be in the eye of the beholder--there was an audience wide enough to justify the economics of scribal work. Valentinus was regarded as enough of a threat that he is directly addressed by church fathers.
                              On the other hand, it did not long survive its heyday; conversely, Manichaeanism (which is rather more related than orthodox Christianity) lasted for centuries. It was not sufficiently widespread to self-propagate in the face of resistance.
                              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                              sigpic
                              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                              Comment

                              Related Threads

                              Collapse

                              Topics Statistics Last Post
                              Started by bluetriangle, 09-09-2020, 05:39 AM
                              5 responses
                              164 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Started by RGJesus, 11-10-2016, 04:40 AM
                              379 responses
                              72,055 views
                              0 likes
                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
                              Working...
                              X