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Things not spoken into existence.

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  • Things not spoken into existence.

    So, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. First scene... "...and the earth was void and empty, and darkness covered the face of the deep, and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters...". What does it mean that these things did not exist by "Word"? ...as in, this scene and the things therein were not spoken into existence. Further, what would be the ramifications of this obvious truth?

  • #2
    What is so "obvious" about this supposed truth. You simply state that these things were not spoken into existence and say it is obvious. What am I missing? Am I missing anything?
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      What is so "obvious" about this supposed truth. You simply state that these things were not spoken into existence and say it is obvious. What am I missing? Am I missing anything?
      You are missing the propensity to make arguments from silence. That's a good thing.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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      • #4
        Towards this first scene is where "the Word" of God is directed. IOW, they are before God spoke. This is the order presented in scripture. Moses, being carried along by the Holy Spirit, is very precise throughout the account. The order in which things are presented isn't an accident.

        Further, nowhere in scripture will you find that God said "...let there be darkness covering deep or spirit moving on waters...". This, plus the order in which things are presented make it an obvious truth. Question was, what are the implications? ...and what does it mean?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Jeff View Post
          Towards this first scene is where "the Word" of God is directed. IOW, they are before God spoke. This is the order presented in scripture. Moses, being carried along by the Holy Spirit, is very precise throughout the account. The order in which things are presented isn't an accident.

          Further, nowhere in scripture will you find that God said "...let there be darkness covering deep or spirit moving on waters...". This, plus the order in which things are presented make it an obvious truth. Question was, what are the implications? ...and what does it mean?
          It means you are reading into the text. And the Word is not literally God's voice. The Word is the Logos, the Son.

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          • #6
            Hello Sparko. If there is any other Word recorded in the text other than what God is speaking please identify. Otherwise you are reading in.

            ...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among men. There is the Son of God... right there.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Jeff View Post
              Towards this first scene is where "the Word" of God is directed. IOW, they are before God spoke. This is the order presented in scripture. Moses, being carried along by the Holy Spirit, is very precise throughout the account. The order in which things are presented isn't an accident.

              Further, nowhere in scripture will you find that God said "...let there be darkness covering deep or spirit moving on waters...". This, plus the order in which things are presented make it an obvious truth. Question was, what are the implications? ...and what does it mean?
              A) The Bible, as we have it, is not "chronological". Even many of the books do not focus on chronology.
              2) You have a way of saying things that is much less than clear - it's often difficult to discern what you're trying to say.
              "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                Hello Sparko. If there is any other Word recorded in the text other than what God is speaking please identify. Otherwise you are reading in.

                ...and the Word became flesh and dwelt among men. There is the Son of God... right there.
                so if the Word is literally the voice of God, then when it became flesh God couldn't talk anymore right?

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                • #9
                  Hello again Sparko. Word made flesh... Yeshua / Jesus... a man in whom the fullness of God (Father) dwelt bodily. When the Son spoke it was God speaking. "...I speak nothing on my own but only what I have learned from my Father...". And, "...in these last days God (Father) has spoken to us by His Son. So these are the testimonies the Son gave of the Father... and the Father gave of His Son.

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                  • #10
                    Hello Cow Poke. Chronology is of utmost importance in the Seven Day account. Note the same account in Genesis 2...being not so chronological but more a playing out of the chronology presented in Genesis 1... as if God is calling things that be not as though they were... then their becoming.This is the case as I have come to see it. Apologies for the way that I speak if it seems unclear. Just trying focus on the text as I see it is presented and asking others how they see it and what it may mean in the grand scheme. In short, I have sought, and still seek, my God with all of my heart concerning the state of the world and the division that abounds and these things that I speak of are a product of that.
                    Last edited by Jeff; 11-24-2018, 02:54 PM.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                      Hello again Sparko. Word made flesh... Yeshua / Jesus... a man in whom the fullness of God (Father) dwelt bodily. When the Son spoke it was God speaking. "...I speak nothing on my own but only what I have learned from my Father...". And, "...in these last days God (Father) has spoken to us by His Son. So these are the testimonies the Son gave of the Father... and the Father gave of His Son.
                      the WORD made flesh. you said the WORD of God was literally God speaking. His voice. so you must believe his voice became Jesus.

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                      • #12
                        Getting warm Sparko. If it is God (Father) speaking to us by His Son is it not the Father's voice we are hearing? If it is not where is faith if in fact it comes by hearing... and hearing by the Word of God? When the faith of Abraham was made complete when he offered Isaac was he justified by your idea of Logos? ...or did God say, "...because you have obeyed my voice..."?

                        Just as we are of our fathers and mothers according to the flesh, so too is Yeshua of His Father and mother according to the Spirit. "...and the Holy Spirit fell upon Mary and she became with child...". We, living souls after the pattern of Adam. He, a life giving Spirit after the Word which called things that be not as though they were... which became in the fullness of time. Through faith we obtain unto the the Spirit of adoption so that we know we will be like Him when we shall see Him as He is. The same Spirit who begat our Lord is given us as a guarantee. Right?

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                        • #13
                          ...ok, I'll expound upon the OP.

                          What it means that the first scene and what is presented therein exist without Word is first this: Mediation and the means thereof require the existence of two parties. Hence, the first things were bought forth prior to the speaking of God. Where no ear exists speaking loses its place, so to speak. Especially in the context of creation since "omniscience" belongs to the speaker. What could one who "knows all" possibly say to himself?

                          Now, in full disclosure I am not a Trinitarian... but neither do I deny the Deity of Christ. I see this instead: To illustrate imagine there is a sheet of paper in front of you. You cut it in half. One half represents infinite God, the other finite creation. Now, push one half into the other so that the edges overlap a half an inch or so. The overlapping portion represents to me "mediation" between two sides that would otherwise have nothing in common... aka, "the Word". And since in this case one side is God and the other, at first, is nothing yet, the Word would necessarily be the fullness of God in a form that can relate to things that are not. Get it... sort of?
                          Last edited by Jeff; 11-25-2018, 12:42 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Installment 2

                            Understanding, then, that to make an infinite God relatable to a finite creation a bridge must be established that tethers the two sides together... and before that, there must be put into place those things that the new side will consist of. Hence, "...and the earth was empty and void, and darkness covered the face of the deep, and the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters...", are presented first in order followed by God speaking "...the Word..." towards those first things.

                            Next, how the Word of God, being mediation between what is God and what is not, relates to both sides. Keeping with the overlapping papers analogy, the overlap (Word) belongs to God first as a vehicle by which He will be revealed to His creation. Yet, this same vehicle will belong to creation since creation, and not God, is in need of it. Hence, "...all things are upheld by the Word of God's command...".

                            Enough for now. One small thought at a time. Baby steps...

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Jeff View Post
                              Getting warm Sparko. If it is God (Father) speaking to us by His Son is it not the Father's voice we are hearing? If it is not where is faith if in fact it comes by hearing... and hearing by the Word of God? When the faith of Abraham was made complete when he offered Isaac was he justified by your idea of Logos? ...or did God say, "...because you have obeyed my voice..."?

                              Just as we are of our fathers and mothers according to the flesh, so too is Yeshua of His Father and mother according to the Spirit. "...and the Holy Spirit fell upon Mary and she became with child...". We, living souls after the pattern of Adam. He, a life giving Spirit after the Word which called things that be not as though they were... which became in the fullness of time. Through faith we obtain unto the the Spirit of adoption so that we know we will be like Him when we shall see Him as He is. The same Spirit who begat our Lord is given us as a guarantee. Right?
                              And yet we have the Father speaking to Jesus the Son in the bible. So the Word is not God's voice.

                              And there is nothing that says God has to use his voice to create with. Him saying "let there be light" doesn't mean that is the actual cause of the light, it could just be his comment as he created the light. If I say "let there be light" and flip the light switch, did I cause the light by my voice?

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