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  • Originally posted by Larry Serflaten View Post
    Cute sign...
    Thank you, I made it myself.



    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Larry Serflaten View Post

      You overlooked the fact that the mistake could have been my own. In the first message I said 'within a week', and my next message said 'in about a week?'

      That should show you that I was not certain I got the time element right the first time. It isn't like a get a transcript that I can go check what was said.
      May we presume that "in about a week" would be less than two weeks?

      I'm always still in trouble again

      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
        May we presume that "in about a week" would be less than two weeks?
        I have no idea, what I am hearing from the holy spirit is 'watch and see' !


        Comment


        • Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          Malachi 3:6 limits God's lack of change specifically to patterns of attitude and behaviour, contrasted with Israel's change of heart toward God - proper attention to the text surrounding the statement and even within the same verse makes that clear enough. It is much the same as meeting someone after 30 years, and saying "he hasn't changed a bit." A lot of things about the person would have changed, but not the person's attitudes and behaviour.

          So no - Malachi 3:6 does not indicate that God (or rather, one person of the trinity) could not have become flesh.
          That does not answer the question. If there is a three person God, was it changed to two persons when Christ walked the earth, or was Jesus still God while in the flesh?

          As far as a change in nature, it clearly states Jesus remains the same from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 1:10-12
          I am pretty certain he gets that trait from his Father....

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Larry Serflaten View Post
            I have no idea...
            I agree with that part, Larry.

            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Larry Serflaten View Post
              That does not answer the question. If there is a three person God, was it changed to two persons when Christ walked the earth....
              Lemme stop you right there, because it didn't change to "two persons" - Jesus was still God - always was, always will be.

              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Larry Serflaten View Post

                Just to be sure you have all the facts (of this discussion). There is a very small number of passages indicating Jesus is God, with no mention of a three person God. A three person God is man's interpretation or interpolation or in other words, man's own tradition. There are a many passages that say there is only one God, several that say God is our heavenly Father, and several more of Jesus himself saying God is his father and he is God's son. One plain example can be found in John 8:54.
                There are hundreds of passages indicating that Jesus is God (and that God is more than one person) when one reads them in context. The concept of the Trinity, while not explicitly spelled out anywhere (the closest is Mat. 28:19), is the only concept which doesn't force me to toss out the bits of scripture I don't agree with (like you're doing here).

                Fr. Andrew: So Jeremiah 1:4-5; this is Jeremiah speaking.
                Now the Word of the Lord came to me, saying, “Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, and before you were born, I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.

                Fr. Stephen: Right, so the Word of Yahweh comes to him. It doesn’t say he heard the Word of Yahweh. So unless you think, like a sheaf of looseleaf paper with these words on it floated down out of the sky and landed in Jeremiah’s lap—which is very clearly not what it’s saying—the Word of the Lord is someone who speaks. And even though it’s identified as the Word of Yahweh, he says, in the first person, “I formed you in the womb… I knew you…”

                Fr. Andrew: Yes, so this is the Word of Yahweh, saying things that only Yahweh could say, that he created Jeremiah, that he knew him and consecrated him and appointed him to be a prophet to the nations.

                Fr. Stephen: And then in verse six, the very next verse, when Jeremiah responds, he calls him, again, the Lord Yahweh, and you get the weird “Lord all-caps GOD” thing, because, again, “Lord LORD” sounds weird in English. And then in verse nine, we’re told that Yahweh puts out his hand and touches Jeremiah’s mouth. So if you had any doubts that he was there in person…

                Fr. Andrew: Yeah, another very bodily experience.

                Fr. Stephen: He puts out his hand and touches his mouth. And he says in that, after touching his mouth, “Behold, I have put my words”—plural—“in your mouth.” So the Word, capital W, puts words, puts his words, in the mouth of the prophet.

                Fr. Andrew: We mentioned all of these instances—again, there’s hundreds and hundreds of usages of these phrases in the Bible; we can’t go over all of them, but we mention all of them to give you a kind of key for understanding when you read the Bible, when you see these hundreds of instances yourself, to understand what this phrase means, “the Word of the Lord” or “the Word of God, the Word of Yahweh.”

                So there’s three things that I think are really important to understand here. Number one is that this is a person. This is a person talking to people and appearing to people. Number two, that, again this person is seen and interacts bodily with people, with the prophets especially. And then the third one is that this person is Yahweh, is the God of Israel, and is also distinguished from Yahweh, meaning that this is God, this is a second Person who is God. There’s God, the one most often simply called Yahweh, and then there’s also Yahweh, the Word Yahweh—that these are two Persons who are both Yahweh the God of Israel, and yet they’re not the same Person; they’re distinguished from each other. And if you keep these three things in mind, whenever you see that phrase, “the Word of the Lord” or “the Word of God,” in Scriptures, you’re going to be able to read that much more fruitfully, I think, whenever you see that in, again, hundreds of places that this is used.

                source

                See, similarly, The Angel of the Lord.

                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

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                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Larry Serflaten View Post

                  Just to be sure you have all the facts (of this discussion). There is a very small number of passages indicating Jesus is God, with no mention of a three person God. A three person God is man's interpretation or interpolation or in other words, man's own tradition. There are a many passages that say there is only one God, several that say God is our heavenly Father, and several more of Jesus himself saying God is his father and he is God's son. One plain example can be found in John 8:54.
                  Nice way to undercut your own argument

                  As even you agree there are a number of passages indicating that Jesus is God; and a three person God is the best way to make sense of the overall testimony of scripture. And even if it is tradition that doesn't mean that it is necessarily wrong. And yes if you are trying to turn people from Jesus by claiming he is the satan in disguise, you are most definitely turning people from God.

                  So the question is how many passages is few enough to toss out what they are saying? Two? Three? or maybe five? I know of only one passage that says a prophet who is wrong should not be feared, so I guess that one can be tossed out now that your prophecy has turned out to be utterly wrong and you can go on your merry way pretending you are not a false prophet.
                  Last edited by alaskazimm; 02-10-2024, 03:24 PM.
                  We know J6 wasn’t peaceful because they didn’t set the building on fire.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    There are hundreds of passages indicating that Jesus is God (and that God is more than one person) when one reads them in context. The concept of the Trinity, while not explicitly spelled out anywhere (the closest is Mat. 28:19), is the only concept which doesn't force me to toss out the bits of scripture I don't agree with (like you're doing here).
                    Adding to this. Even when all the passages for which even a hint of ambiguity exist are rejected, there remain enough to substantiate the claim that the Word of God is God himself, at least on occasion, and the same applies for the Angel of the Lord. When the Samaritan scriptures are examined, there are a greater number giving evidence that the Word of God is God himself. Questions arise as to whether the Jewish texts or the Samaritan are older and more reliable, but the earlier confidence that the Jewish texts are superior has been somewhat eroded recently.
                    1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                    .
                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                    Scripture before Tradition:
                    but that won't prevent others from
                    taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                    of the right to call yourself Christian.

                    ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by alaskazimm View Post

                      Nice way to undercut your own argument

                      As even you agree there are a number of passages indicating that Jesus is God; and a three person God is the best way to make sense of the overall testimony of scripture. And even if it is tradition that doesn't mean that it is necessarily wrong. And yes if you are trying to turn people from Jesus by claiming he is the satan in disguise, you are most definitely turning people from God.

                      So the question is how many passages is few enough to toss out what they are saying? Two? Three? or maybe five? I know of only one passage that says a prophet who is wrong should not be feared, so I guess that one can be tossed out now that your prophecy has turned out to be utterly wrong and you can go on your merry way pretending you are not a false prophet.
                      If there is only one, there is good reason to question whether there might be an inaccuracy. A few, provided that they are explicit and with no evidence of a contrary claim: that is more than enough for a text be accepted, as can the view that the authors wrote what they meant.
                      Last edited by tabibito; 02-10-2024, 08:40 PM.
                      1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                      .
                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                      Scripture before Tradition:
                      but that won't prevent others from
                      taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                      of the right to call yourself Christian.

                      ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post

                        Lemme stop you right there, because it didn't change to "two persons" - Jesus was still God - always was, always will be.
                        More than enough scriptures have to scrapped or "reinterpreted" to make that claim supportable.
                        Attempts are made to use the Malachi text in the same way that Larry did as support for the concept that Logos did not cease to be God when he became human.
                        Last edited by tabibito; 02-10-2024, 08:59 PM.
                        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                        .
                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                        Scripture before Tradition:
                        but that won't prevent others from
                        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                        of the right to call yourself Christian.

                        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Larry Serflaten View Post

                          Just to be sure you have all the facts (of this discussion). There is a very small number of passages indicating Jesus is God, with no mention of a three person God.
                          Once is enough.

                          A three person God is man's interpretation or interpolation or in other words, man's own tradition. There are a many passages that say there is only one God, several that say God is our heavenly Father, and several more of Jesus himself saying God is his father and he is God's son. One plain example can be found in John 8:54.
                          The Trinity is an explanation for the FACTS that the bible says:
                          1. The Father is God but the Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit
                          2. The Son is God but the Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit
                          3. The Holy Spirit is God but the HS is not the Father or the Son.
                          4. There is only ONE God, not three.

                          You have three persons all being shown to be God but not the same person. We have three distinct persons who are all fully ONE God.

                          That is the Trinity. Yes, it is s "manmade" doctrine but it explains what the bible clearly shows.

                          I am not leading anyone away from God, I am attempting to help people better understand who it is we should worship, as that is God's will (Hosea 6:6 CSB)
                          I don't think you are leading people astray on purpose, but because your beliefs about God are incorrect and you are trying to convince others to follow your errors, yes, you are leading people astray.

                          When Satan arrives posing as Jesus, all those deceived into thinking he is Jesus will worship him as God because they are all being taught that Jesus is God. Those that fall into that trap will be as the 5 virgins who had no oil and were shut out of the marriage. Put plainly, they lose their salvation having worshiped Satan. It very well may be that the idea that Jesus is God is of satanic origin, just so he will be worshiped as God when he arrives. So, I am trying to stop the whole notion that Jesus is God so there will be fewer who perish because they did not have the truth!
                          You already seem to be doing that: Believing in a false version of Jesus that Satan is promoting.

                          If anything I am leading people away from Satan, I still say they should worship God as the Father Almighty as the first line in the Apostles's creed plainly states:

                          "I believe in God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth"


                          Satan wants people to not worship Jesus and think he is not God. If he can get people to reject Jesus as God then he is turning people away from the true God. One of the hallmarks of a cult is to claim Jesus was not God but just a man or an angel or other creature.


                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Larry Serflaten View Post

                            I have no idea, what I am hearing from the holy spirit is 'watch and see' !

                            You were the one who made the prophesy and said within a week. It has been two weeks now. You are a false prophet. You either made it up yourself, or the person you are listening to is Satan, not God. Repent.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              ...Yes, it is s "manmade" doctrine but it explains what the bible clearly shows.....
                              It's a "manmade" doctrine in the same sense that the Law of Gravity is a "manmade" law.

                              Both are human attempts to explain what is evident in nature.

                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Larry Serflaten View Post

                                That does not answer the question. If there is a three person God, was it changed to two persons when Christ walked the earth, or was Jesus still God while in the flesh?

                                As far as a change in nature, it clearly states Jesus remains the same from the foundation of the world. Hebrews 1:10-12
                                I am pretty certain he gets that trait from his Father....
                                God's nature did not change when Jesus incarnated. The son added a human nature to his divine nature, but did not change his divine nature.

                                God is omnipresent, so he was still God and the trinity still existed when he was incarnate on earth as Jesus.

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