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Everyone gets Saved, and there is no Hell:

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  • Repentance:

    Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
    Everyone gets Saved, and there is no Hell:

    The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.

    Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

    We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48, and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell.

    As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
    See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

    The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
    An interesting change of perspective happens when we start viewing everyone as a child of God and that everyone is to be saved and repentant:

    As like we start seeing things like a drunken bum laying in a gutter and our first thought might be = "To Hell with them".

    So that changes when we start seeing every other person as not yet saved, and then there is a feeling of wonder for some person like a drunken bum because one day they will be great and be our equal before God.

    Not just drunks or bums, but Kings and terrorist and our enemies and nonbelievers and infidels will all become born again as true children of God whether any of them like it or not - and then we must view them in the better light of God for His lost children.

    When we view sinners as damned to a Hell then it is easy to turn thy back to thy neighbors and to strangers, instead of rightfully having consideration and compassion for the people who we may help or encourage.

    Comment


    • If everyone will be saved, then what is the point of the world continuing like it is? Why hasn't God already fixed his creation and saved everyone and made us immortal in paradise? Why is the world continuing to be a broken and sinful place with murder and sin?


      The only reason is that God is giving men more time to repent and be saved. If we are all already saved, there is no point.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
        An interesting change of perspective happens when we start viewing everyone as a child of God and that everyone is to be saved and repentant:

        As like we start seeing things like a drunken bum laying in a gutter and our first thought might be = "To Hell with them".

        So that changes when we start seeing every other person as not yet saved, and then there is a feeling of wonder for some person like a drunken bum because one day they will be great and be our equal before God.

        Not just drunks or bums, but Kings and terrorist and our enemies and nonbelievers and infidels will all become born again as true children of God whether any of them like it or not - and then we must view them in the better light of God for His lost children.

        When we view sinners as damned to a Hell then it is easy to turn thy back to thy neighbors and to strangers, instead of rightfully having consideration and compassion for the people who we may help or encourage.
        I think the attitudes you describe here can be a real problem, indeed. However, it's far from true that not believing in Universalism leads one to behave like that towards nonbelievers. I'd say the attitude you ascribe to the Universalist reflects a little better the attitude I've seen in lots of the Christians I've met -- except they don't have "certainty" that the unbelievers will be saved, they just long for it and will that it be so and act to that end... like our Father, if I may add.

        All in all, I'd say the attitudes you ascribe to the two are unrealistic generalizations and, even if they were true (and I dont think they are), they don't really make any argument in favor of your position (if that is what you intended it to do. Maybe not)
        We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
        - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
        In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
        Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

        Comment


        • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
          The second death is explained by the Apostle Paul as death to sin, people die to sin, . . .
          Explain how you understand this from the text.
          . . . which is done in the lake of fire where the sins are burned yet the person is saved.
          The whole person is baptized in the lake of fire. [Teaching of baptisms, ". . . and [with] fire: . . . will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." -- Matthew 3:11-12. ". . . to destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28.]

          There is a difference between "works" being burned and the whole person.

          Eternal life is a current possession of those who have received Christ (1 John 5:12; John 1:12-13). Those who do hot yet have the Spirit of Christ do not have life and are none of His (1 John 5:12; Romans 8:9).

          Paul warns, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

          Jesus said to those who did not believe, "Ye are of [your] father the devil, . . ." -- John 8:44.

          And you did not answer that those who are born of God are even now exempt from the second death (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 2:11).
          Last edited by 37818; 04-14-2017, 04:38 PM.
          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

          Comment


          • John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

            Comment


            • Reply:

              Originally posted by Bisto View Post
              All in all, I'd say the attitudes you ascribe to the two are unrealistic generalizations and, even if they were true (and I dont think they are), they don't really make any argument in favor of your position (if that is what you intended it to do. Maybe not)
              I greatly appreciate that you do give that last thought of uncertainty because I really do not want to convert or convince anyone even though it looks as if I am.

              I accept that other people will reject what I say - and I am fine with that - and so my point and purpose is just to discuss the topic, and I even like to argue about doctrine and about scriptures, so anyone who does not want it is fine by me. It is their loss.

              As the Bible declares = some people have eyes which can not see and ears which can not hear and or a heart which can not understand.

              On other thread topics I talk about the other subjects and so I am not stuck or obsessed about any one (1) topic as like this one here.

              Some have accused me of making it into my own Blog, but it is the online forum itself that turns every thread into a type of mini Blog so I am not doing anything different from every other person starting a thread or sticking to a topic.

              If my thread does become famous on the internet with millions of views then that would be great advertisement for this Tweb forum - and then I would take over the entire world ~ just kidding, LOL.

              And yes I know you did not ask for any of this rant in your comment - as I offer it on my own initiative.

              Originally posted by Bisto View Post
              I think the attitudes you describe here can be a real problem, indeed. However, it's far from true that not believing in Universalism leads one to behave like that towards nonbelievers. I'd say the attitude you ascribe to the Universalist reflects a little better the attitude I've seen in lots of the Christians I've met --
              The reason that the different perspective matters is because when we look at the person (rulers of the world or drunken bum or at any person) then the orthodox Christian perspective is that we need to preach the Gospel to the person(s) and seek to save their soul from Hell or seek to save them to salvation.

              From my perspective that every person will be saved then I look at the other people (be they high or low) and ask = what is God doing with each person?

              We must be careful in asking why? as in why God does anything, because asking why about God can hurt our human brain.

              After asking what is God doing with other people, then we start asking what is God doing with me myself? and what is God doing with us?

              People always want to ask why? and yet the pertinent question is to ask WHAT - what is God doing? because we can discover the answers to what? but very seldom ever know the reasons why?

              As such when we see the drunken bum (or any person) we can then ask - what can I do to help with the will of God for that person.

              When we view the person as not-saved then it means that the person is some how separate or separated from God and that is never true.

              It is in fact impossible to be separated from our loving Father God.

              Originally posted by Bisto View Post
              except they don't have "certainty" that the unbelievers will be saved, they just long for it and will that it be so and act to that end... like our Father, if I may add.
              Yes - I am one who does have the certainty and yes I am certain = that everyone gets saved and there is no such place as a Hell.

              Mine is not a belief, as I went way past belief a long time ago.

              God does not want people to live in beliefs, as belief is just like knocking on the door, and we are to enter past belief into knowing.

              People get stuck in their belief - yes - but only when the belief is wrong or inaccurate.

              Comment


              • James.

                You really need to explain how the "second death" is the cleansing of the sinners sins where the believer is exempt form the "second death." What was Christ's death on the cross need for then?

                Paul.
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • Reply:

                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Explain how you understand this from the text.
                  The whole person is baptized in the lake of fire. [Teaching of baptisms, ". . . and [with] fire: . . . will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." -- Matthew 3:11-12. ". . . to destroy both soul and body in hell." -- Matthew 10:28.]

                  There is a difference between "works" being burned and the whole person.
                  Jesus was said to baptize "with the Holy Ghost and with fire" and so the lake of fire is just another baptism where the sins are washed away and the person is forgiven and saved.

                  And "to destroy both soul and body in hell" really means to DESTROY, and to destroy does not mean eternal life in torment.
                  Even if the soul were destroyed too then it means destroyed as in dead. Link: Definition - Destroy

                  If you think destroy means to burn people (or souls) in a Hell then Jesus would be telling a lie and not a metaphor by saying destroyed.


                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Eternal life is a current possession of those who have received Christ (1 John 5:12; John 1:12-13). Those who do hot yet have the Spirit of Christ do not have life and are none of His (1 John 5:12; Romans 8:9).
                  Eternal life means in Heaven or in Hell or in the Kingdom of God, so if sinners do not have eternal life then they can not live forever in a Hell.

                  When sinners are first resurrected then they still will not have eternal life until they go through the baptism of fire where they become SAVED.

                  Not even one (1) lost sinner sheep will remain lost or left out.

                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  Paul warns, "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

                  Jesus said to those who did not believe, "Ye are of [your] father the devil, . . ." -- John 8:44.
                  This is because there are two (2) different kinds of salvation, as one in this life and the second saved after death.

                  Jesus already paid the penalty in full for all of humanity for after death.

                  But in this life people need a different kind of salvation from sins, as in saved from addictions, saved from ignorance, saved from cruelty and from lust, violence and from greed, and etc.

                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  And you did not answer that those who are born of God are even now exempt from the second death (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 2:11).
                  Those who are born of God (those saved) here and now have already died the second death being that they are already dead to sin.

                  Other people who are hopelessly lost in this life will not be saved until the second death after the resurrection where they too will die to sin.

                  Comment


                  • Reply:

                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    James.

                    You really need to explain how the "second death" is the cleansing of the sinners sins where the believer is exempt form the "second death."
                    I do believe that I explained this in the comment #128 above.

                    You might see that I am some times really slow at making comments.

                    Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                    What was Christ's death on the cross need for then?

                    Paul.
                    The reason for Jesus on the cross is because at that time, there was no eternal life, and every person was doomed to eternal death.

                    It is said plain and simple here = Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." KJV.

                    When Jesus paid the penalty then all of humanity became open to have eternal life for humanity.

                    ~ "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22

                    See it says " all " as in everyone.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                      I greatly appreciate that you do give that last thought of uncertainty because I really do not want to convert or convince anyone even though it looks as if I am.

                      I accept that other people will reject what I say - and I am fine with that - and so my point and purpose is just to discuss the topic, and I even like to argue about doctrine and about scriptures, so anyone who does not want it is fine by me. It is their loss.
                      That is fine, but aside from some exasperated or sarcastic comments thrown your way, I'd say most comments here have been very much on topic, if that's what you mean.
                      As the Bible declares = some people have eyes which can not see and ears which can not hear and or a heart which can not understand.
                      Yeah, but you can imagine why I cringe at using such a passage in any conversation or discussion about any area of disagreement. It could in theory become an excuse for our own bad presenting or arguing whatever we're trying to communicate at the moment. Not saying that's necessarily the case here, but that's what comes to mind when passages like that one come up.
                      On other thread topics I talk about the other subjects and so I am not stuck or obsessed about any one (1) topic as like this one here.

                      Some have accused me of making it into my own Blog, but it is the online forum itself that turns every thread into a type of mini Blog so I am not doing anything different from every other person starting a thread or sticking to a topic.

                      If my thread does become famous on the internet with millions of views then that would be great advertisement for this Tweb forum - and then I would take over the entire world ~ just kidding, LOL.

                      And yes I know you did not ask for any of this rant in your comment - as I offer it on my own initiative.
                      Okay.
                      The reason that the different perspective matters is because when we look at the person (rulers of the world or drunken bum or at any person) then the orthodox Christian perspective is that we need to preach the Gospel to the person(s) and seek to save their soul from Hell or seek to save them to salvation.

                      From my perspective that every person will be saved then I look at the other people (be they high or low) and ask = what is God doing with each person?

                      We must be careful in asking why? as in why God does anything, because asking why about God can hurt our human brain.

                      After asking what is God doing with other people, then we start asking what is God doing with me myself? and what is God doing with us?

                      People always want to ask why? and yet the pertinent question is to ask WHAT - what is God doing? because we can discover the answers to what? but very seldom ever know the reasons why?

                      As such when we see the drunken bum (or any person) we can then ask - what can I do to help with the will of God for that person.
                      I don't know what your point is here. AFAIK, God is extending his Kingdom in Jesus -- both within ourselves, and through us towards others and the world. IMO, what we are called to DO is the same whether God is a Universalist or not.
                      When we view the person as not-saved then it means that the person is some how separate or separated from God and that is never true.

                      It is in fact impossible to be separated from our loving Father God.
                      In a way, I think you are right. God is the source of all life and existence, and all things are "through Him", so no person could be alive or even exist and be wholly "apart from" Him.

                      Despite the above, there is a way I don't think you are right when you say this. As 37818's avatar graphically shows, post-Fall mankind is at enmity with God and in need of reconciliation with Him (e.g. Eph. 2, Col. 1:15-23), and Christ-less people will face separation from God in a meaningful enough way for Paul to actually say it out loud:
                      Scripture Verse: 2 Thess. 1:5-10 (NIV)

                      5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

                      © Copyright Original Source


                      Does this passage not look like the kind of contrast you would expect to read from Paul if Universalism were wrong?

                      Yes - I am one who does have the certainty and yes I am certain = that everyone gets saved and there is no such place as a Hell.

                      Mine is not a belief, as I went way past belief a long time ago.

                      God does not want people to live in beliefs, as belief is just like knocking on the door, and we are to enter past belief into knowing.

                      People get stuck in their belief - yes - but only when the belief is wrong or inaccurate.
                      Interesting epistemology. I understand you in part, but I can't help but ask: what would it take for you to change your mind about Universalism? What biblical evidence, for example? If you are familiar with the Christian Thinktank, you may remember the man sometimes discusses hypotheses by asking "what kind of verses would we expect to find if X theory were true/false" or things like that. What would it take for you?
                      Last edited by Bisto; 04-15-2017, 04:53 PM.
                      We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
                      - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
                      In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
                      Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

                      Comment


                      • Reply:

                        Originally posted by Bisto View Post
                        Scripture Verse: 2 Thess. 1:5-10 (NIV)

                        5 All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

                        © Copyright Original Source


                        Does this passage not look like the kind of contrast you would expect to read from Paul if Universalism were wrong?
                        It says there = eternal destruction - and that is not eternal life in a Hell.

                        What it means is eternal destruction of the sins as in the second death and thereby death to sin.

                        That aligns perfectly with this:

                        As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
                        See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

                        The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

                        It would be different if Paul or Jesus or anywhere in the Bible it just straight out declared that = You all must do as commanded or else ye will burn in a place of torture and torment forever and ever. ~ People say that but that threat is never said in the scriptures.

                        Any true threat of violence like that needs to be said plain and clear and not in parables or in metaphor or in tricky interpretations.

                        The opposite is said in many places that all ( all ) people are to be saved:

                        ~ 1 Timothy 2:
                        3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
                        4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
                        5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
                        6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
                        ---

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                          Jesus was said to baptize "with the Holy Ghost and with fire" and so the lake of fire is just another baptism where the sins are washed away and the person is forgiven and saved.
                          Why does it say "with unquenchable fire?" What is the point of being "unquenchable?"

                          And "to destroy both soul and body in hell" really means to DESTROY, and to destroy does not mean eternal life in torment.
                          Not eternal life, but the second death (Revelation 20:14), and if no torment' why does it say "the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest " (Revelation 14:11)?

                          Even if the soul were destroyed too then it means destroyed as in dead. Link: Definition - Destroy
                          That is NOT the Biblical definition. The soul will die conscious (Mark 9:48) just as Jesus' soul (Isiah 53:10) died (Psalm 22:1, 6) conscious on the cross. Having completed the payment (John 19:28, 30) before He physically died (Luke 23:46).

                          If you think destroy means to burn people (or souls) in a Hell then Jesus would be telling a lie and not a metaphor by saying destroyed.
                          No. You are arguing translation of απολεσαι. And you are also making he claim it is the "works" not the person being burned up citing 1 Corinthians 3:15 are you not?


                          Eternal life means in Heaven or in Hell or in the Kingdom of God, so if sinners do not have eternal life then they can not live forever in a Hell.
                          The dead soul - their consciousness - their worm does not die (Mark 9:48; as Jesus suffered on the cross (Isaiah 53:10; Psalm 22:6). There is NO eternal life in Hell both the body and soul being dead.

                          When sinners are first resurrected then they still will not have eternal life until they go through the baptism of fire where they become SAVED.
                          That is your false conclusion. It is the second death (Revelation 21:8).

                          Not even one (1) lost sinner sheep will remain lost or left out.


                          This is because there are two (2) different kinds of salvation, as one in this life and the second saved after death.

                          Jesus already paid the penalty in full for all of humanity for after death.
                          To be Lord of all, not Savior of the dead but their Judge (Romans 14:9-11).

                          But in this life people need a different kind of salvation from sins, as in saved from addictions, saved from ignorance, saved from cruelty and from lust, violence and from greed, and etc.


                          Those who are born of God (those saved) here and now have already died the second death being that they are already dead to sin.
                          No, the born of God are exempt from the second death (Revelation 2:11; Revelation 21:7).

                          Other people who are hopelessly lost in this life will not be saved until the second death after the resurrection where they too will die to sin.
                          It nowhere says that. But that is what you are arguing.

                          Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                          I do believe that I explained this in the comment #128 above.
                          Yeah, of what you are convinced.


                          The reason for Jesus on the cross is because at that time, there was no eternal life, and every person was doomed to eternal death.
                          No. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:6 (1-12) is in the past tense. It was already counted as done. And was done when Jesus died in His soul on the cross before He physically died (John 19:30).

                          It is said plain and simple here = Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." KJV.
                          The gift has to be received in this life (Hebrews 9:27).

                          When Jesus paid the penalty then all of humanity became open to have eternal life for humanity.

                          ~ "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." 1 Corinthians 15:22
                          See it says " all " as in everyone.
                          Jesus is the reason why names are in the book of life, so little childern are safe. Names can be blotted out (Revelation 20:15). That is why Jesus said one must become as a little child (Mark 10:14-15) and be born over (John 3:3) in order to even see God's kingdom. Else their name will be blotted out (Psalm 69:27-28).
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • Reply:

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Why does it say "with unquenchable fire?" What is the point of being "unquenchable?"
                            The scriptures declares that God is on fire = Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
                            And the scriptures declare that God appeared in a burning bush and yet the bush was not consumed = Exodus 3:2-3
                            The fire of God consumes sin but the person gets saved.

                            As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
                            See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

                            The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

                            So yes the fire is unquenchable, but the sins are quenched.

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Not eternal life, but the second death (Revelation 20:14), and if no torment' why does it say "the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest " (Revelation 14:11)?
                            That does not mean anyone is burning in any Hell.

                            Having no rest simply means having no Sabbath, and it is referring to this lifetime and not after death.

                            And the Revelation(s) are given in metaphor, so the Bible tells us this about the smoke:

                            Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

                            None of it means any torture or torment in some kind of a Hell.

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            That is NOT the Biblical definition. The soul will die conscious (Mark 9:48) just as Jesus' soul (Isiah 53:10) died (Psalm 22:1, 6) conscious on the cross. Having completed the payment (John 19:28, 30) before He physically died (Luke 23:46).

                            No. You are arguing translation of απολεσαι. And you are also making he claim it is the "works" not the person being burned up citing 1 Corinthians 3:15 are you not?
                            Yes - the sins are burned away and the person gets cleaned and purified and saved.

                            It is a simple message in the Gospels of the universal forgiveness of sins and the reconciliation of humanity to God - the reconciliation of the children to their Father.

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            The dead soul - their consciousness - their worm does not die (Mark 9:48; as Jesus suffered on the cross (Isaiah 53:10; Psalm 22:6). There is NO eternal life in Hell both the body and soul being dead.
                            In this you are half way there - that there is no eternal life in a Hell - and that the soul is thereby dead.

                            Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. KJV.

                            Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. KJV

                            It says this all through the Bible that the sins cause death and God will forgive the sins and make clean the unclean and everyone gets saved into eternal life.

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            That is your false conclusion. It is the second death (Revelation 21:8).
                            The second death means dead to sin.

                            This is not complicated.

                            And it is simple to see that death does not mean eternal life in torture and torment.

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            To be Lord of all, not Savior of the dead but their Judge (Romans 14:9-11).
                            Human judging is far different from God's Judging, see the Bible's Book of Judges.

                            To Judge the dead by God includes our intercessor of Jesus Christ:
                            ~ 1 Timothy 2:
                            3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
                            4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
                            5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
                            6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            No, the born of God are exempt from the second death (Revelation 2:11; Revelation 21:7).
                            If a person is already dead to sin = then there is no need to do that again.

                            I do believe that many in this life who claim to be "saved" and claim to be "born of God" and who claim to be "dead to sin" might find them self as in need of the second death before they can enter into the real salvation.

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            No. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:6 (1-12) is in the past tense. It was already counted as done. And was done when Jesus died in His soul on the cross before He physically died (John 19:30).
                            Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

                            It says = all sin - then all are saved.

                            This same message is repeated all through the Bible.

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            The gift has to be received in this life (Hebrews 9:27).
                            It does not say as your claim - it does not say that at all.

                            Hebrews 9:
                            27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
                            28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
                            -----

                            The first is a physical death where we die only once, the second death to sin does not mean to die again - it means salvation unto life eternal.

                            This message is very plain and simple. See also James 5:20

                            Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                            Jesus is the reason why names are in the book of life, so little childern are safe. Names can be blotted out (Revelation 20:15). That is why Jesus said one must become as a little child (Mark 10:14-15) and be born over (John 3:3) in order to even see God's kingdom. Else their name will be blotted out (Psalm 69:27-28).
                            Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

                            You are just rejecting the plain and simple message of salvation.

                            As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
                            See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

                            The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

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                            • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                              As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
                              See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

                              The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
                              Ahem...
                              Originally posted by Bisto View Post
                              Please explain how you interpret 1 Cor 3:15 in light of its broader context -- what your understanding of it has to do with what comes before it and what comes after it, which are mainly about building on the foundation that is Christ and more broadly addressing the issue of the factions there were in Corinth centered around different leaders (e.g. Paul, Apollos). I may have rambled some nonsense, but I do believe what I said still made some sense and wasn't too far off the usual interpretations I've heard or read of the passage . (In fact, I'll go as far as to say in my previous post I leaned too much into the passage's application for any believer's life, and didn't emphasize enough that Paul was talking about leaders and teachings mainly.)

                              I'll put the chapter here in case you haven't read it in full recently.

                              Scripture Verse: 1 Corinthians 3:1-22 (NIV)

                              1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

                              5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

                              10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

                              16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

                              18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

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                              • Reply:

                                Originally posted by Bisto View Post
                                Ahem...

                                Please explain how you interpret 1 Cor 3:15 in light of its broader context -- what your understanding of it has to do with what comes before it and what comes after it, which are mainly about building on the foundation that is Christ and more broadly addressing the issue of the factions there were in Corinth centered around different leaders (e.g. Paul, Apollos). I may have rambled some nonsense, but I do believe what I said still made some sense and wasn't too far off the usual interpretations I've heard or read of the passage . (In fact, I'll go as far as to say in my previous post I leaned too much into the passage's application for any believer's life, and didn't emphasize enough that Paul was talking about leaders and teachings mainly.)

                                I'll put the chapter here in case you haven't read it in full recently.

                                Uh... James? Can you help us with your hammer, please?
                                I truly do not comprehend whatever you are trying to say or to ask here, and I truly just see it as trying to complicate a simple sentence into some thing that the sentence does not say.

                                I gave you a hand-wave=swoosh before based on that same reason.

                                The broader context makes no difference to the words of verse 15 and I see no sense in trying to dig up some thing which is not there.

                                Perhaps - if I understand you correctly - then this text is like a two edged sword which cuts both way, because that is an important principle for comprehending the meaning of scriptures, see quote below:

                                Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

                                It means that virtually every text of scripture (the word) can be interpreted in two (2) different direction (two edged sword which cuts both way).

                                As such the text of 1 Cor 3:15 can apply to individuals or to the entire human race, and it can be either a painful message for some people but a happy message for other people. It can apply to the rich or poor, to the believer and the nonbeliever, to the righteous and to the wicked.

                                So = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

                                That text is describing a two-sided interpretation by saying = he suffers lost - yet the person is saved.

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