Everyone gets Saved, and there is no Hell:

[Bisto]

first of all, you are cherry picking an old english translation that cloaks the true meaning of the verse, which is that God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved. men have free will and can reject God.

second it doesnt say anything about "There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary." which is what you claimed. where is the judgment seat mentioned?

and if everyone is saved why is there a judgment seat?

Yeah, I thought the Gospel said Jesus will be Judge as established by God? After all, the Apostles preach this as part of the Kerigma in Acts 10:42 and 17:30-31. Jesus more or less says the same at John 5:21-29 and Mt 25:31-46. Paul alludes to it at Rom 2:5-16, 14:9-12; 2 Cor 5:10; and 2 Tim 4:1.

[Sparko]

Yeah, I thought the Gospel said Jesus will be Judge as established by God? After all, the Apostles preach this as part of the Kerigma in Acts 10:42 and 17:30-31. Jesus more or less says the same at John 5:21-29 and Mt 25:31-46. Paul alludes to it at Rom 2:5-16, 14:9-12; 2 Cor 5:10; and 2 Tim 4:1.

I get the feeling that James just reads books and websites that feed his already held beliefs, and has never just sat down and read the bible cover to cover. he doesn't seem to know what it actually says in context, and just knows a few cherry picked verses from these sites and books. He is no better educated than most of the fundy atheists we get on this site.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

first of all, you are cherry picking an old english translation that cloaks the true meaning of the verse, which is that God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved. men have free will and can reject God.

You are the one "cherry picking" when you say = "God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved."

Most people just give far too much power to their self and it is just egotism to think or to claim that human beings can say "no" to God and that the petty human "no" would then be the deciding factor - which it is not, and no one gets to say no to the will of God.

When people say no and people rebel then we are just saying no to our self and rebelling against our self and our puny words have no effect on the will of God.

It is God's will that all ( all ) people get saved, and that all (all) people come to repentance, see 2 Peter 3:9, and the will of God will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

People think that they can tell God no, but it is just being self destructive and fooling thy self.

Any person can have true power in this world but that only happens when the person aligns with the will of God.

second it doesnt say anything about "There is always that part of the Gospel about every person standing before the Judgment seat of God and Jesus as the intermediary." which is what you claimed. where is the judgment seat mentioned?

I gave you a text reference which made the point.

If you are only trying to pretend that it does not use the exact same words as I used - then maybe it is time to grow up.

Or just use any internet search engine and find it your self. HERE.

and if everyone is saved why is there a judgment seat?

The Bible says there is to be a Judgement and that is the reason why.

Also - as already said - the Bible book of Judges explains the point and purpose of the Judges and of the judgements and etc.



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@JC:

Hi man. Before you quote 1 Cor 3:15 again as if it proved your point by itself, could you please quote it in context and explain how your interpretation of it (i.e. relating it to the Lake of Fire as a purification for the wicked, broadly speaking) fits in the flow of the passage? Can you show the passage is talking about the wicked, for example?

I'm sure you already know the other way to interpret it, but for the sake of transparency let's just say that it's much easier to understand the passage as Paul talking of what believers do in this life for the edification of the Church, and whether that work is worthwhile and caused actual strengthening of the Building being edified (that is, the Church) or not. If what you did was a lasting blessing, so to speak, you'll be rewarded; on the other hand, if what you did amounted to nothing of substance (and trial will tell whether it was), then you'll get no extra reward, though you'll still be saved (because Paul's been talking about believers the whole way!), like a man who is saved from a fire although he carries none of his possessions with him. This whole point fits in his current discourse towards the Corinthians about Paul's and Apollo's and any other ministers's work in Corinth.

The above, more or less, is the more usual interpretation, if I'm not mistaken (please, let anyone correct me on this or complement it as they wish). Can you show why your point about the Lake of Fire makes more sense in the context of Paul's discussion in and around 1 Cor 3?

All of this above is complete nonsense trying to divert the truth into absurdity.

Me doing the hand wave = swoosh.

[Bisto]

All of this above is complete nonsense trying to divert the truth into absurdity.

Me doing the hand wave = swoosh.

Hey, I may speak some nonsense sometimes (just ask anyone else on this thread, they may be so kind as to give you some examples!), but... all of the above? Really? :p

Please explain how you interpret 1 Cor 3:15 in light of its broader context -- what your understanding of it has to do with what comes before it and what comes after it, which are mainly about building on the foundation that is Christ and more broadly addressing the issue of the factions there were in Corinth centered around different leaders (e.g. Paul, Apollos). I may have rambled some nonsense, but I do believe what I said still made some sense and wasn't too far off the usual interpretations I've heard or read of the passage . (In fact, I'll go as far as to say in my previous post I leaned too much into the passage's application for any believer's life, and didn't emphasize enough that Paul was talking about leaders and teachings mainly.)

I'll put the chapter here in case you haven't read it in full recently.

Scripture Verse: 1 Corinthians 3:1-22 (NIV)

1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? 4 For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

10 By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.

18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; 20 and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” 21 So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, 22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, 23 and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God.

© Copyright Original Source

[37818]

Here is a specific text - and it is just one of many:

~ 1 Timothy 2:
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
---

See how it says "all" and not some, as in every person being saved, and Jesus Himself as the mediator (intermediary) for all.

Let's look at v.4, ". . . Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. . . ."
:"will have" - θελει - meaning to wish. An intent. Would wish.

2 Peter 3:9, ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ."
:"willing" - βουλομενος - meaning to prefer. Not preferring.

Titus 2:11, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."

Ezekiel 18:4, . . .32, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

Revelation 20:14, 15, ". . . death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

I did not say personal attacks.

I said that I do not attack a person's faith.

That maybe matter of semantics and the meaning you intend. But the words, ". . . I do not attack a person's . . . ." Is not to be personal, is it not? I understood you to claim not to attack one's faith. But by advocating anything in general contrary to a person's faith does attack a person's faith. How can it not?

It is a matter of defending what is true and right, is it not?

So if you are determined to hold onto the barbaric concept of burning people in a fiery Hell as part of your faith ~ then so be it.

But it is a matter what the holy scriptures actually teach, is it not?
Revelation 13: 11, ". . . the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." So our the Lord GOD says, ". . . I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, . . ." (Ezekiel 18:32).

After that comes the "Lake of Fire" to clean and purify the most rebellious of souls:

The scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person, as done in the "Lake of Fire".

See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

No. You conflate the burning of the persons (John 15:6; Revelation 21:8 ) with the burning of persons' works of those who are already saved (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.

And that is only true of those who are born of God (1 John 5:1, 4-5; Revelation 2:11).

The place of the burning of the lost is what has been prepared for Satan, ". . . everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." -- Matthew 25:41.

And it is called punishment and its duration is everlasting (Matthew 25:46).

[37818]

Revelation 13: 11,

Should say,

Revelation 14: 11,

[Sparko]

You are the one "cherry picking" when you say = "God would like all men to be saved. it does not say that all men will be saved."

Most people just give far too much power to their self and it is just egotism to think or to claim that human beings can say "no" to God and that the petty human "no" would then be the deciding factor - which it is not, and no one gets to say no to the will of God.

Oh sure God can MAKE everyone "saved" but only by taking away their free will. He chooses not to. He wants everyone to be saved but it is up to them. He holds the door open, but you have to walk through it. The bible is clear in many many places that there is a judgment day and that not everyone will be saved. People like you just cherry pick verses that they like and ignore the ones that prove them wrong.

Also - as already said - the Bible book of Judges explains the point and purpose of the Judges and of the judgements and etc.

Have you actually read the book of Judges? because apparently you have not.
The book of Judges is the story of how Israel kept rebelling against God and God appointed Judges to PUNISH THEM.

It has nothing to do with the DAY of Judgment. If everyone is saved then he would not need to judge anyone would he?

[Christianbookworm]

Oh sure God can MAKE everyone "saved" but only by taking away their free will. He chooses not to. He wants everyone to be saved but it is up to them. He holds the door open, but you have to walk through it. The bible is clear in many many places that there is a judgment day and that not everyone will be saved. People like you just cherry pick verses that they like and ignore the ones that prove them wrong.





Have you actually read the book of Judges? because apparently you have not.
The book of Judges is the story of how Israel kept rebelling against God and God appointed Judges to PUNISH THEM.

It has nothing to do with the DAY of Judgment. If everyone is saved then he would not need to judge anyone would he?

I thought He punished Israel by letting surrounding nations attack them and then sent a judge to save their butts when they finally begged God for help?

[Sparko]

I thought He punished Israel by letting surrounding nations attack them and then sent a judge to save their butts when they finally begged God for help?

yeah that.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

Let's look at v.4, ". . . Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. . . ."
:"will have" - θελει - meaning to wish. An intent. Would wish.

2 Peter 3:9, ". . . The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. . . ."
:"willing" - βουλομενος - meaning to prefer. Not preferring.

Titus 2:11, ". . . For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, . . ."

It repeatedly says it over and over that "all men" to be saved.

Human beings might wish it or hope it but God commands it.

The will of God = will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

You are viewing it as if man (male and female) have a will which is strong against God, and that God's will is not going to be fulfilled, and the exact opposite is the truth.

God's will is for all (for all) to be saved - and it will be done = see the Bible text that you quote above.

Ezekiel 18:4, . . .32, ". . . the soul that sinneth, it shall die. . . . For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye."

Revelation 20:14, 15, ". . . death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

I realize that orthodox Christianity tries to pretend that "death" and "dying" are synonymous with burning in Hell but that is not true.

The Bible says death and die then it does not mean go to any such place as Hell except that the Hell means the grave.

Death and die go together with the grave.

And as you quote = The soul dies, as in a dead body in the grave (sheol).

The death and the second death is explained by the Apostle Paul as death to sin, people die to sin, which is done in the lake of fire where the sins are burned yet the person is saved.

DEATH TO SIN - is the SECOND DEATH for every person.

But it is a matter what the holy scriptures actually teach, is it not?
Revelation 13: 11, ". . . the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, . . ." So our the Lord GOD says, ". . . I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, . . ." (Ezekiel 18:32).

It says the "smoke" goes forever and ever, so "smoke" does not mean people or burning souls as smoke just means the smoke.

And even torment does not mean burning or torture as it can mean regrets and sorrow which is to be expected from human sins even after being forgiven.

And again you quote "death" and "dieth" as if that means torture in Hell which it does not.

The first death is the body dies, and the second death means dead to sin.

No. You conflate the burning of the persons (John 15:6; Revelation 21:8 ) with the burning of persons' works of those who are already saved (1 Corinthians 3:11-15).

And that is only true of those who are born of God (1 John 5:1, 4-5; Revelation 2:11).

No, truly, if you look honestly it is your self and others who are trying to shut the gates of Heaven to sinners, when Jesus opened the way for all of humanity and beyond.

My way is from the famous saying = Hate the sin but not the sinner.

So yes I see the burning of sins and not the burning of sinners.

And every person throughout humanity are the children of God.

The place of the burning of the lost is what has been prepared for Satan, ". . . everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ." -- Matthew 25:41.

That is taken from a parable, and it applies to here on earth, as Jesus declares to feed the hungry clothe naked give drink to thirsty:
Matthew 25:
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

You are applying it to after death when Jesus is talking about the here-n-now.

Everlasting fire is a blessing to humans for repentance and forgiveness, because the fire burns the sins and saves the person.

And it is called punishment and its duration is everlasting (Matthew 25:46).

Yes I see punishment and we all reap as we sow for our sins here-n-now, but it is a temporary punishment and not punishing as continual punishing - no.

Jesus paid the penalty (the punishment) in full. Jesus paid for all sins on the cross.

Now the gift of God is forgiveness and mercy and salvation to all.

[Bisto]

@JC

Hi again. You don't have to reply to this message too (I'm guessing you may have enough posts to reply to as it is), but I am curious. Given your above post describing your understanding of the 'escathological fire' and Second Death and all that (things usually related to Hell), I'd like to ask you, how do you read Isaiah 66:22-24? I suggest you read the whole passage for context (seriously, please do), but here's the last three verses, set in the New Creation:

Scripture Verse: Isaiah 66:22-24 (NIV)

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

© Copyright Original Source

Who are 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Who are 'all mankind' in this passage? (v.23, 24)
Who looks on the bodies of 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Whom are 'those who rebelled against Me' loathsome to?* (v.24)
If 'all mankind' here does not, indeed, refer to ALL of mankind, then what could that imply on other instances where such inclusive language is used?

Look, I am not trying to affirm that either (a) the worms are literal or (b) the fire is literal (though from passages like this one, I guess I could). But Jesus did get 'Gehenna' imagery from this passage (e.g. Mark 9), so let's just focus on the people mentioned, and whatever implications that might have... and maybe the fact that the book ends here.


Cheers,

Bisto.


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(*): I am not sure if the grammar I used in this question is correct. Sorry. Second language and all.

[James Cusick]

Reply:

@JC

Hi again. You don't have to reply to this message too (I'm guessing you may have enough posts to reply to as it is), but I am curious. Given your above post describing your understanding of the 'escathological fire' and Second Death and all that (things usually related to Hell), I'd like to ask you, how do you read Isaiah 66:22-24? I suggest you read the whole passage for context (seriously, please do), but here's the last three verses, set in the New Creation:

Scripture Verse: Isaiah 66:22-24 (NIV)

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

© Copyright Original Source

Who are 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Who are 'all mankind' in this passage? (v.23, 24)
Who looks on the bodies of 'those who rebelled against Me' in this passage? (v.24)
Whom are 'those who rebelled against Me' loathsome to?* (v.24)
If 'all mankind' here does not, indeed, refer to ALL of mankind, then what could that imply on other instances where such inclusive language is used?

Look, I am not trying to affirm that either (a) the worms are literal or (b) the fire is literal (though from passages like this one, I guess I could). But Jesus did get 'Gehenna' imagery from this passage (e.g. Mark 9), so let's just focus on the people mentioned, and whatever implications that might have... and maybe the fact that the book ends here.

Cheers,

Bisto.

I did look over Isaiah 66, and the NIV is better in the New Testament but I see the KJV as much better for the Old Testament, but here I will use the NIV as you did:

verse 22 “... all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
---

So first it does say "all" as in all of mankind (male and female) and then it says "dead bodies" and dead bodies are not souls burning in any Hell or grave.

The "dead bodies" mean dead and not living, and dead bodies means dead corpse or carcass.

The worms eat a dead carcass and that fire burns the dead carcass = and that is what this verse declares - which is the same thing as Gehenna too as Jesus was talking about for dead bodies being eaten by worms and burned in a physical fire in the garbage dump.

And more-so in the last 2 words on verse 24 it again declares "all mankind" see it as loathsome and again "all" means all, as when all people get saved through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross who paid the penalty for all of our sins.

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(*): I am not sure if the grammar I used in this question is correct. Sorry. Second language and all.

I can usually see through improper grammar and misspellings and linguistics as it is not so hard to do, and I will never nit-pick about mistakes or confusing comments.

Such things are very common with people in every form of writing and typing and in talking too.

The English language and especially the American English is really a very limited and barbaric language with lots of huge discrepancies.

I did not really know this about the English language until studying the scriptures as translated from other languages and then it became clear.

I like to point out that the English language has only one word for "Love" and even it is not well defined as most people do not know what Love means and virtually no one accept the dictionary definition of Love, but in English we have lots of various words for murder, as murder can be said in so many varieties, as like assassination or lethal injection or as collateral damages, and etc etc etc. So we have one uncertain word for Love but many words for murder = it is a barbaric language.

[Sparko]

(Bisto's point flying over James' head)

[Christianbookworm]

(Bisto's point flying over James' head)

That isn't very hard....

[James Cusick]

Reply:

(Bisto's point flying over James' head)

That isn't very hard....

Is not that sweet of you to say!

Hopefully Sparko gives out brownie points.

So if anyone want to discuss the topic then they are welcome and invited to do so by me.

I will not be throwing around any cheep shots or petty insults at anyone.

That is not the way of Christ. ~ IMO.