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Unorthodox Theology 201 Guidelines

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This forum area is primarily for persons who would identify themselves as Christians whether or not their theology is recognized within the mainstream or as orthodox though other theists may participate with moderator permission. Therefore those that would be restricted from posting in Christianity 201 due to a disagreement with the enumerated doctrines, ie the Trinity, the Creatorship of God, the virgin birth, the bodily resurrection of Christ, the atonement, the future bodily return of Christ, the future bodily resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the final judgment may freely post here on any theological subject matter. In this case "unorthodox" is used in the strict sense of a person who denies what has been declared as universal essentials of the historic Christian faith. Examples would be adherents to Oneness, Full Preterists, Unitarian Universalist Christians, Gnostics, Liberal Christianity, Christian Science to name a few.

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  • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
    I truly do not comprehend whatever you are trying to say or to ask here, and I truly just see it as trying to complicate a simple sentence into some thing that the sentence does not say.
    It's really really simple. The Bible is made of books which are messages somebody wrote to somebody else. As in any other message, old and new, the context of any proof-text needs to be understood for it to remain truthful to what the original sender meant. The Bible is not some magic book made of swiss-army-knife verses that, just because they are inspired by God, can be interpreted any way we like.

    For example, it would be stupid for me to proof text 1 Tim. 2:15 as evidence that women can only be saved if and when they become mothers (and faithful, loving, sanctified and modest at that); Paul wrote that verse in a specific context, making a specific argument, to a specific audience, about a specific topic. The same applies to any other verse, and really, to any fragment of any communication. There is a thing called "quote mining" for a reason.

    I gave you a hand-wave=swoosh before based on that same reason.
    Hopefully you understand why seeing you react like that to such a basic idea can be a little exasperating.
    The broader context makes no difference to the words of verse 15 and I see no sense in trying to dig up some thing which is not there.
    I disagree and I showed you why. Do i have to quote actual commentaries? I'm trying to be understanding and explaining things myself. I'd much rather have a civil conversation on the merits of a contextually justified interpretation than quoting actual exegesis by third parties more qualified than me, to the same end.

    Perhaps - if I understand you correctly - then this text is like a two edged sword which cuts both way, because that is an important principle for comprehending the meaning of scriptures, see quote below:

    Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

    It means that virtually every text of scripture (the word) can be interpreted in two (2) different direction (two edged sword which cuts both way).
    I disagree with your interpretation of Heb. 4:12. Show me how it fits in Hebrews 4 and we'll be talking. Is that really asking for too much? I'd say the same to a friend quoting a single sentence uttered by a third party -- "give me context and I'll understand what the person meant, only then can I say whether I can agree with your assessment of it or not".
    As such the text of 1 Cor 3:15 can apply to individuals or to the entire human race, and it can be either a painful message for some people but a happy message for other people. It can apply to the rich or poor, to the believer and the nonbeliever, to the righteous and to the wicked.
    I think 1 Cor 3:15 DOES have some application for us believers here, but I already explained how that would be IMU, in the post you dismissed as "complete nonsense" (I may be paraphrasing). That would simply be that every believer's work for the church will be weighed on its ultimate helpfulness, and if what you did for the sake of the church was of edification (which can be seen because it endured the fire of trial), then that'll be an honor and reward for you -- but even if your work (or lack of it) was ultimately of no real value, you'd still be saved, but with no 'plus'.
    So = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

    That text is describing a two-sided interpretation by saying = he suffers lost - yet the person is saved.
    True - of the people Paul's talking about, leadership. And if we stretch it a little bit, it may apply to any brother who is saved by faith and whose work for the Church proved worthless -- because it didn't endure the fire of test.

    I am assuming you are a man older or much older than me. By comparison with the average age of posters in this forum, I'm one of the kids here, so to speak. If I got your country right, then English is your first language. Am I really being that dense? Because the subject matter itself is so simple...
    Last edited by Bisto; 04-17-2017, 10:17 PM.
    We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
    - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
    In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
    Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

    Comment


    • Reply:

      Originally posted by Bisto View Post
      I disagree with your interpretation of Heb. 4:12. Show me how it fits in Hebrews 4 and we'll be talking. Is that really asking for too much?
      That has no interest for me as I already told how it relates to the "Lake of fire" and that was my point.

      If you your self want to fit that text into the entire chapter then you do it.

      So yes it is asking too much of me to do your homework.

      Originally posted by Bisto View Post
      I think 1 Cor 3:15 DOES have some application for us believers here, but I already explained how that would be IMU, in the post you dismissed as "complete nonsense" (I may be paraphrasing).
      Yes - I gave you a direct simple answer.

      So deal with it.

      My answer is still the same.

      Originally posted by Bisto View Post
      That would simply be that every believer's work for the church will be weighed on its ultimate helpfulness, and if what you did for the sake of the church was of edification (which can be seen because it endured the fire of trial), then that'll be an honor and reward for you -- but even if your work (or lack of it) was ultimately of no real value, you'd still be saved, but with no 'plus'.
      The word of God is like a two-edged-sword which cuts both ways.

      So yes you are correct about this in your view, but the words in the text still applies to the "lake of fire" and the sins being burned and every person being saved.

      Originally posted by Bisto View Post
      I am assuming you are a man older or much older than me. By comparison with the average age of posters in this forum, I'm one of the kids here, so to speak. If I got your country right, then English is your first language. Am I really being that dense? Because the subject matter itself is so simple...
      No, I understand and comprehend your words just fine, it is just that you are not taking the next step for your self and I can not do that for you.

      It is like creating an invisible wall around your self, because you say that you want this and want that but it is your own job to do the homework about God for your self.

      When it is your own personal relationship with God then I can not interfere or intervene.

      Comment


      • So you, the man with unorthodox theology, posting on an unorthodox theology subforum, will not defend your unorthodox interpretations when given the chance. Asking for how a verse fits with its chapter is a very straightforward thing to do if your interpretation had solid foundations (hint: it doesn't), like asking how the elbow fits in the arm or how a machine fits in a given production system.

        I already explained myself on 1 Cor 3. If you insist, I'll take some time on Heb 4 (which shouldn't be even necessary, just go read it and ask some basic questions on what you observe). But you won't do the same for your views on verses ripped off those chapters for some odd reason.


        By the way, does your view of verse interpretation mean I can grab a random fragmented quote of yours and give it new meaning for my own purposes? It could be fun. I am thinking I could promote you as an Annihilationist* from some of your fragmented quotes, for instance.




        (*): I am not an Annihilationist, but I am playing the opportunist card right now.
        We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore on Christ's behalf: 'Be reconciled to God!!'
        - 2 Corinthians 5:20.
        In deviantArt: ll-bisto-ll.deviantart.com
        Christian art and more: Christians.deviantart.com

        Comment


        • 2 Timothy 4:3
          KJ21
          For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            2 Timothy 4:3
            KJ21
            For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but having itching ears, they shall heap to themselves teachers in accordance with their own lusts.
            that fits James Cusick. Proof in point he refuses to acknowledge the clear teaching in John 3:16-18, that you pointed out inpost #125 because he wants what tickles his ears instead of sound doctrine. so he does worse then handwave it he ignores God's Words there so he can continue believing a lie told to him by the father of lies.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Why does it say "with unquenchable fire?" What is the point of being "unquenchable?"
              The scriptures declares that God is on fire = Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
              And the scriptures declare that God appeared in a burning bush and yet the bush was not consumed = Exodus 3:2-3
              The fire of God consumes sin but the person gets saved.
              Ok, understood that is your interpetation. But nowhere does the holy scripture expressly teach that.


              As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
              See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

              The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
              You have conflated the "second death" with testing of the believer's works built upon the foundation of trusting Christ.
              It is the testing of a believer's works for reward not in order to be saved. Bad works burned up. The person is not in the fire.

              1 Corinthians 3:11-15,
              For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


              Revelation 21:7-8,
              He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

              But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


              So yes the fire is unquenchable, but the sins are quenched.
              No. Again, nowhere does the holy scripture expressly teach any such thing.


              Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Not eternal life, but the second death (Revelation 20:14), and if no torment' why does it say "the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest " (Revelation 14:11)?
              That does not mean anyone is burning in any Hell.
              It says they have "torment."
              Having no rest simply means having no Sabbath, and it is referring to this lifetime and not after death.
              No. It refers to their eternal suffering in eternal death of their bodies and souls.

              And the Revelation(s) are given in metaphor, so the Bible tells us this about the smoke:

              Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

              None of it means any torture or torment in some kind of a Hell.
              It says in Revelation, "the smoke of their torment." And your reference as you cite it says, "consume away."
              Revelation "torment" is not in metaphor that Psalm 37:20 is indeed in metaphor.



              Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              That is NOT the Biblical definition. The soul will die conscious (Mark 9:48) just as Jesus' soul (Isiah 53:10) died (Psalm 22:1, 6) conscious on the cross. Having completed the payment (John 19:28, 30) before He physically died (Luke 23:46).

              No. You are arguing translation of απολεσαι. And you are also making he claim it is the "works" not the person being burned up citing 1 Corinthians 3:15 are you not?
              Yes - the sins are burned away and the person gets cleaned and purified and saved.

              It is a simple message in the Gospels of the universal forgiveness of sins and the reconciliation of humanity to God - the reconciliation of the children to their Father.
              You are not understanding the holy scripture how it disallows your view:
              Mark 10:15,
              Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

              The Greek 'ου μη' translated "shell not" actually means, "not in any way."
              And this corresponds to what Jesus told Nicodemus:
              John 3:3,
              . . . Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . .

              The Greek 'ου δυναται' translated "cannot" actually means "cannot possibly."
              The requirement to be born of God disallows your view altogether. If you fail to comprehend this . . . .

              Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              The dead soul - their consciousness - their worm does not die (Mark 9:48; as Jesus suffered on the cross (Isaiah 53:10; Psalm 22:6). There is NO eternal life in Hell both the body and soul being dead.
              In this you are half way there - that there is no eternal life in a Hell - and that the soul is thereby dead.

              Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. KJV.

              Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. KJV

              It says this all through the Bible that the sins cause death and God will forgive the sins and make clean the unclean and everyone gets saved into eternal life.
              The holy scripture nowhere promises everyone gets saved. Nowhere.
              In the second death both the body and soul dies (Matthew 10:28), only their worm never dies and the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48).

              Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              That is your false conclusion. It is the second death (Revelation 21:8).
              The second death means dead to sin.

              This is not complicated.

              And it is simple to see that death does not mean eternal life in torture and torment.
              There is no eternal life in hell fire. There is only second death of the body and soul (Matthew 10:28) where their worm is what never dies (Mark 9:48).

              Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              To be Lord of all, not Savior of the dead but their Judge (Romans 14:9-11)
              Human judging is far different from God's Judging, see the Bible's Book of Judges.

              To Judge the dead by God includes our intercessor of Jesus Christ:
              ~ 1 Timothy 2:
              3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
              4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
              5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
              6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
              I already covered this. The Greek 'θελει' translated "will" in "will have all" means "wants" all. it does not mean all "will be" saved.

              Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              No, the born of God are exempt from the second death (Revelation 2:11; Revelation 21:7).
              If a person is already dead to sin = then there is no need to do that again.

              I do believe that many in this life who claim to be "saved" and claim to be "born of God" and who claim to be "dead to sin" might find them self as in need of the second death before they can enter into the real salvation.
              The ones who have eternal life now know God (John 17:3; 1 John 5:12, 13; Romans 8:16). Your arguments are nonsense.

              Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              No. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:6 (1-12) is in the past tense. It was already counted as done. And was done when Jesus died in His soul on the cross before He physically died (John 19:30)
              .

              Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

              It says = all sin - then all are saved.

              This same message is repeated all through the Bible.
              Again, Nowhere in the whole Bible is it taught everyone gets saved.


              Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              The gift has to be received in this life (Hebrews 9:27)
              .
              It does not say as your claim - it does not say that at all.

              Hebrews 9:
              27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
              28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
              -----
              It says "unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation"

              The first is a physical death where we die only once, the second death to sin does not mean to die again - it means salvation unto life eternal.

              This message is very plain and simple. See also James 5:20
              Saying your false teaching does not make it true.

              Your argument is not found in the holy scriptures.

              Revelation 21:7-8,
              He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

              But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


              Revelation 21:27,
              . . . And there shall in no way enter into it <the new Jerusalem> any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


              Revelation 20:15,
              And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

              Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              Jesus is the reason why names are in the book of life, so little childern are safe. Names can be blotted out (Revelation 20:15). That is why Jesus said one must become as a little child (Mark 10:14-15) and be born over (John 3:3) in order to even see God's kingdom. Else their name will be blotted out (Psalm 69:27-28).
              Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

              You are just rejecting the plain and simple message of salvation.

              As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
              See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

              The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
              No, I accept God's plain simple gospel of Christ.

              1 Corinthians 15;3-4,
              . . . For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . .

              Romans 1:16,
              For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . .

              ___________

              Let us try a different approach. How you came to your view point. Step by step. And how you had believed before you came to your current view..
              . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

              Comment


              • How then does this fit in:-
                Ezekiel 3:18-19
                When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ but you do not warn him, and you fail to speak in order to warn the wicked one to turn from his wicked course so that he may stay alive, he will die for his error because he is wicked, but I will ask his blood back from you. 19 But if you warn someone wicked and he does not turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked . . .
                BU

                Comment


                • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                  The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.

                  Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

                  We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48, and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell.

                  As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
                  See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

                  The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
                  This is horrific eisegesis. Perhaps I will respond in a bit more depth in the coming days.
                  For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                    The reason that every person throughout humanity does get SAVED is because Jesus paid the punishment (or penalty) in full for all of humanity, and so not even one (1) sinful sheep will remain lost or left out.
                    Your argument is that if the scope of the atonement is indeed universal, everyone for whom Christ died will unavoidably be saved. Put another way, the extent of the atonement is coextensive with the final number of the redeemed. This argument, whilst a faulty one, is typically urged by high Calvinists in order to demonstrate the (purported) untenability of an unlimited atonement alongside only a limited number of humans inheriting salvation.

                    The reason why this logic fails is that the procurement of salvation and its application are distinct. When salvation is rightly understood as conditional in nature, it is not inconceivable that some for whom Christ died will fail to receive the benefits of the salvation he procured. The conditions of salvation are expressed in the New Testament. Christ may be accepted or rejected by those who hear the proclamation of the good news. This is in no way negates the fact that Christ died for all and calls all persons to obey the gospel in the present age.


                    Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                    Every claim contrary to that simple truth is just human fear and confusion and absurdities.

                    We are to love our enemies just as God loves His enemies = Matthew 5:43-48, and love does not burn people in torment and there is no place of Hell.
                    Your citation of Matthew 5:43–48 pertains to enemy-love; it is not pertinent to the issue of whether some persons will be irrevocably condemned in the age to come. Moreover, in the very same Gospel Jesus explicitly admonishes his disciples to fear God (see Matt. 10:28). The fear believers are warned against is the fear of fellow human beings, for humans are only capable of inflicting harm in the current age. The reason why Jesus-followers are to fear God is that he alone has the authority to cast persons into Gehenna, a place of eschatological punishment. Not one of the references to Gehenna in Matthew’s Gospel provides any indication that those who are assigned this destiny will at last be restored to God.

                    Originally posted by James Cusick View Post
                    As to the "Lake of Fire" the scriptures say that the fire purifies and cleans the person.
                    See it here = If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. KJV, 1 Corinthians 3:15

                    The sinful works shall be burned - while the person is SAVED.
                    In 1 Corinthians 3:15 Paul is not addressing the fate of non-believers. The ‘fire’ in view is therefore not to be conflated with the lake of fire in Revelation 20:14–15 and 21:8. The fiery lake in the Apocalypse is not restorative in nature. Those who are cast into it are irretrievably lost.
                    For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                    Comment


                    • I am for the most part Bahaii but don't completely adhere to it either.Was a Christian for years.Today I see Christianity as a religion that had evolved into a fear based religion.The ides of those that don't get born again using our belif,prayers and rituals is forever damned .This idea to me makes me believe that many Christian's worship a book rather than God(YHVH).they even go so far as to say the 144,000 in revelations are Christian saints but the John clearly says the are of Israel thus they are Jews.The idea of a practicing Jew being born again by addherance to the first commandment leaves Christian's trying to speak for God even saying Jesus is God.yet no one sees the face of God and lives but many saw the face of Christ.

                      Comment


                      • Christianity teaches of a kingdom of God found after death.Gnosticism teaches finding the Kingdom in the here and now because God's spirit (Holy Spirit,Voice of God,Kalam Allah ect...) Is found in the present because there is no place that God is not.When you go within you can here it's eternal vibration ( Logos,Word,Bajhan,Music of the spheres, Celestial sound current) Do you not know that the kingdom of God is within you? The body is the temple of the living God If your eye be single your whole body shall be full of light.

                        Comment


                        • By citing Scripture, you are citing exactly what it is that Christianity teaches, that the Kingdom of God is within believers, that we Christians are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Trout View Post
                            The doctrine of hell makes people squeamish. What if we loved God's holiness so much that we actually rejoiced at those burning in hades?

                            That's a creepy thought
                            A local boy kicked me in the butt last week.
                            I just smiled at him and turned the other cheek.
                            I really don't care, in fact I wish him well.
                            'Cause I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in hell.

                            - Weird Al" Yankovic - Amish Paradise

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              If everyone will be saved, then what is the point of the world continuing like it is? Why hasn't God already fixed his creation and saved everyone and made us immortal in paradise? Why is the world continuing to be a broken and sinful place with murder and sin?


                              The only reason is that God is giving men more time to repent and be saved. If we are all already saved, there is no point.
                              This is the obvious logical argument to why everyone cannot be saved. Regardless of whatever else you believe, the Bible and most of history makes no sense if everyone is saved.

                              Regarding the existence of Hell, that is another story. The Hebrew word for Hell is "Sheol". There was no equivalent in Greek, so the closest substitute was "Hades", which originates in Greek mythology. Gehenna was a geographical location. The final word "Tartarus", is also borrowed from Greek mythology, where it is a place of banishment or imprisonment for disobedient gods and monsters after the Titan war. This is also translated to Hell in 2 Peter 2:4, which in context of the rest of the chapter applies to the angels that sinned in Genesis 6. Tartarus does not appear in Genesis, but the reference doesn't come from Greek mythology either. It is a reference to the book of Enoch 20:3. (The only available manuscripts ever found of Enoch were in Greek, so it is unclear what the Hebrew word was, if indeed any part of Enoch comes from that time period.) Tartarus is never used to refer to humans.

                              Regarding Sheol, it is inconsistently translated. It is not always Hell; sometimes it is grave or pit. The KJV is consistent in that when it translates Sheol to Hell, it is for someone evil (eg. Deuteronomy 32:22, Psalms 9:17), and grave when it is for somebody deemed righteous. (eg. Genesis 37:35, 43:38, 1 Kings 2:6,9, Job 14:13)

                              Regarding Hades, the same patter prevails there. For good people Hades is translated grave (1 Corinthians 15:5), and for evil it is translated Hell. (Matthew 11:23) It is seen following a horse in Revelation 6:8, and second it is thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:14)

                              John 3:13 says nobody has ascended to Heaven. Jesus' sacrifice was required to redeem mankind before they would be eligible. Those who rejected God do not go to heaven, they just cease to exist.

                              And the story of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable; very similar to other parables by Jesus that were intended to teach a story, not to be taken literally.

                              Comment

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                              Started by RGJesus, 11-10-2016, 04:40 AM
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                              Last Post thormas
                              by thormas
                               
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