Derail: Hyper-Calvinism discussion from "Big Beef" thread

[Dave L]

Does anyone know what Hyper-Calvinism is? There are two forms of Calvinism. My type, Infralapsarianism, that agrees with ALL the historic creeds. And Supralapsarianism, which does not. So don't call me a hyper-Calvinist unless you can prove it using scripture or the historic Protestant creeds.

[Cow Poke]

“The preparations of the heart in man, And the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.” Proverbs 16:1 (KJV 1900)

Have you ever had a Freudian slip of the tongue? This happens when you try your hardest not to say what you just said.

So, when you were violating the rules by arguing moderation in the other thread, even after being told to stop, was the LORD ordering you to do that, or was that a Freudian slip of the tongue?

[Dave L]

So, when you were violating the rules by arguing moderation in the other thread, even after being told to stop, was the LORD ordering you to do that, or was that a Freudian slip of the tongue?

When do you, supposedly as a Christian, deny the truth to make peace with anyone? It was a false charge of Hyper-Calvinism, to begin with.

[Cow Poke]

When do you, supposedly as a Christian, deny the truth to make peace with anyone?

I'm beginning to think you're probably not a bad fella in real life, but your cornbread ain't quite done the middle.

It was a false charge of Hyper-Calvinism, to begin with.

Walks like it, talks like it...

[Dave L]

I'm beginning to think you're probably not a bad fella in real life, but your cornbread ain't quite done the middle.



Walks like it, talks like it...

Here's a sample from the Westminster Confession. The Church of England developed it. The Presbyterians and Baptists also claimed it. All Reformed Churches agree with it. It proves your charges are false.

The Westminster Confession; CHAPTER III. Of God’s Eternal Decree

GOD from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:[i] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[ii] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[iii]

II. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;[iv] yet hath he not decreed any thing because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.[v]
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels[vi] are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.[vii]

IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.[viii]

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory,[ix] out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;[x] and all to the praise of his glorious grace.[xi]

VI. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto.[xii] Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,[xiii] are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified,[xiv] and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.[xv] Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.[xvi]

VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.[xvii]

VIII. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,[xviii] that men attending the will of God revealed in his word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.[xix] So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God,[xx] and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation, to all that sincerely obey the Gospel.[xxi]

---

[i] Eph. 1:11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Rom. 11:33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Heb. 6:17. Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. Rom. 9:15. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Ver. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



[ii] James 1:13. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. Ver. 17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 1 John 1:5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.



[iii] Acts 2:23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. Mat. 17:12. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed: likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Acts 4:27. For of a truth, against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, Ver. 28. For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. John 19:11. Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. Prov. 16:33. The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.



[iv] Acts 15:18. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 1 Sam 23:11. Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand? Will Saul come down as thy servant hath heard? O Lord God of Israel, I beseech thee, tell thy servant. And the Lord said, He will come down. Ver. 12. Then said David, Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul? And the Lord said, They will deliver thee up. Mat. 11:21. Wo unto thee, Chorazin! wo unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Ver. 23. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works which have been done in thee had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.



[v] Rom. 9:11. For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, Ver. 13. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. Ver. 16. So then, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy. Ver. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.



[vi] 1 Tim. 5:21. I charge thee before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things, without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality. Mat. 25:41. Then shall he say unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.



[vii] Rom. 9:22. What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: Ver. 23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory? Eph. 1:5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Ver. 6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Prov. 16:4. The Lord hath made all things for himself; yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.



[viii] 2 Tim. 2:19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. John 13:18. I speak not of you all; I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.



[ix] Eph. 1:4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, and without blame before him in love: Ver. 9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he hath purposed in himself: Ver. 11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. Rom. 8:30. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 2 Tim. 1:9. Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. 1 Thess. 5:9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath; but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.



[x] Rom. 9:11, 13, 16. [See letter e immediately foregoing.] Eph. 1:4, 9. [See letter i immediately foregoing.]



[xi] Eph. 1:6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. Ver. 12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.



[xii] 1 Pet. 1:2. Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. Eph. 1:4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, and without blame before him in love: Ver. 5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Eph. 2:10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 2 Thess. 2:13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth.



[xiii] 1 Thess. 5:9. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Ver. 10. Who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Tit. 2:14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.



[xiv] Rom. 8:30. Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Eph. 1:5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. 2 Thess. 2:13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren, beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth.



[xv] 1 Pet. 1:5. Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.



[xvi] John 17:9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me, for they are thine. Rom. 8:28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose, &c. [to the end of the chapter.] John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. Ver. 65. And he said. Therefore said I unto you, That no man can come unto me except it were given unto him of my Father. John 10:26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. John 8:47. He that is of God, heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. 1 John 2:19. They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.



[xvii] Matth. 11:25. At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Ver. 26. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in thy sight. Rom. 9:17. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Ver. 18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy and whom he will he hardeneth. Ver. 21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Ver. 22. What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction? 2 Tim. 2:19. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. Ver. 20. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. Jude, ver. 4. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Pet. 2:8. And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient, whereunto also they were appointed.



[xviii] Rom. 9:20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom. 11:33. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Deut. 29:29. The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.



[xix] 2 Pet. 1:10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give all diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.



[xx] Eph. 1:6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the Beloved. Rom. 11:33. [See letter s immediately foregoing.]



[xxi] Rom. 11:5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Ver. 6. And if by grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Ver. 20. Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear. 2 Pet. 1:10. [See letter t immediately foregoing.] Rom. 8:33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Luke 10:20. Notwithstanding, in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

[Cow Poke]

Here's a sample from the Westminster Confession. The Church of England developed it. The Presbyterians and Baptists also claimed it. All Reformed Churches agree with it. It proves your charges are false.

It doesn't appear anybody really cares what you think, Dave. And just posting long screeds void of any point or opinion of your own doesn't work.

[Dave L]

It doesn't appear anybody really cares what you think, Dave. And just posting long screeds void of any point or opinion of your own doesn't work.

That's OK. It reveals more about you than what you might care to think about. Don't be found in this group. “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” 2 Thessalonians 2:10–11 (KJV 1900)

[Cow Poke]

That's OK.

Cool, so do you have any hobbies? Do you garden? Grill steaks? Carpentry?

[Dave L]

Cool, so do you have any hobbies? Do you garden? Grill steaks? Carpentry?

My main hobby is bible study and sharing what I learned. I have a library of over 3000 books on the shelf and in Logos 9.
It yields great peace of mind. And health. (I Have not used prescription medicine since the 1980s!) I read the bible cover to cover every year starting at 5:am every day. And it still thrills me as any hobby should. I have my own pro-level gym and work out 6 days a week. My wife and I ride bikes as much as possible when weather permits. We also grocery shop on bikes. That pretty much sums up my hobbies.

[Cow Poke]

My main hobby is bible study and sharing what I learned.

I was hoping your main hobby was something at which you were good.

I have a library of over 3000 books on the shelf and in Logos 9.
It yields great peace of mind. And health. (I Have not used prescription medicine since the 1980s!) I read the bible cover to cover every year starting at 5:am every day. And it still thrills me as any hobby should. I have my own pro-level gym and work out 6 days a week. My wife and I ride bikes as much as possible when weather permits. We also grocery shop on bikes. That pretty much sums up my hobbies.

Sounds good - keep it up!

[Littlejoe]

What are your credentials? Any credited degrees? Why do you think you are right and I'm wrong?

I admit, I don't have any degrees in Bible Studies. I took 40 hours of special training to become certified/ordained as a Senior Chaplain. I like you have seriously studied the Bible for over 40 years. I've also taken courses in Biblical exegesis and hermeneutics. In addition, I've also studied other scholars and learned a lot about the culture of people of the Bible (very important in exegesis and hermeneutics). It well known among scholars that authors of the Bible (esp. in, but not limited to prophecy) will state general principles in "unequivical" language to add emphasis. A good primer for this is the excellent book by Gordon Fee and Douglas Stuart "How to Read the Bible For All It's Worth"

We are guaranteed tribulation in the world. It is good for the believer and bad for the rest. Do you believe all things work together for good to those who love the Lord?

You're going to throw your back out with that much bending and twisting...and that's clearly a cop out an you know it.
Proverbs 12:21 KJV clearly says: "There shall NO EVIL happen to the just: but the wicked shall be filled with mischief." NO evil, No harm shall happen to the just. It doesn't say God will make it all better in this passage. We do believe that God will work all things together for good...but, that's not what this verse says. This is an example of what I'm trying to get you to understand.

Proverbs 22:6 KJV says: "6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Do you know someone who raised their children in church, displined them judiciously, loved them and they walked away from the faith? Or worse ended up dead or in prison doing what they shouldn't have been doing? I sure do.

Unlike other books of the Bible, (The Gospels for instance) Proverbs are not Unequivocal Theological statements of Biblical fact, they are general principles for living a just and righteous life. All we have to do to disprove this "theory" you have of Kings behaviors being directed by God is to actually read the Scriptures and see King Ahab, King Manasseh, King Jehoram, King Ahaz...etc. etc.

[Dave L]

I was hoping your main hobby was something at which you were good.



Sounds good - keep it up!

Insults only show your weaknesses and possibly other unwholesome traits.

[Cow Poke]

Insults only show your weaknesses and possibly other unwholesome traits.

We've seen others like you, Dave, who tend to think they know more than others about what the Scriptures say, and frequently post Scriptures out of context that really have nothing to do with the subject. Then there's this judgmental attitude.

You're welcome to stay as long as you like, but I don't think you'll last long at all.

[Cow Poke]

How do you explain it?

I already did.

[Dave L]

We've seen others like you, Dave, who tend to think they know more than others about what the Scriptures say, and frequently post Scriptures out of context that really have nothing to do with the subject. Then there's this judgmental attitude.

You're welcome to stay as long as you like, but I don't think you'll last long at all.

You should know more than me. But it is obvious you know very little about Christ and his ways.