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Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

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  • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
    Let's look at the verses one at a time. Start with 1 Samuel 28:11 :

    Saul here has a human form, he is an old man wearing a robe. Are you saying that disembodied human spirits have bodies and clothes ?
    There isn't anything preventing a "ghost" from having "clothes", they just aren't made from physical materials. I've seen a demon wearing a raincoat, so Samuel* wearing a robe is no big deal.

    *Not Saul as you say in your post.


    • Originally posted by Unitarian101 View Post
      What precisely do you mean by that they are “rational souls” and where does scripture say that is the case ? And how is this relevant to the definition of (human) death ?
      Scripture Verse: Luke 1

      19 The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20 And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their appointed time.”

      © Copyright Original Source

      Clearly rational. And it's relevant because part of your argument seems to be that human beings cannot exist separate from their bodies because then they couldn't be rational. Disproved.


      • I support your outcome that trinity doctrine is not biblical.


        • Originally posted by Darfius View Post
          Scripture Verse: Luke 1

          19 The angel said to him, “I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to tell you this good news. 20 And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day this happens, because you did not believe my words, which will come true at their appointed time.”

          © Copyright Original Source

          Clearly rational. And it's relevant because part of your argument seems to be that human beings cannot exist separate from their bodies because then they couldn't be rational. Disproved.
          That is not "a part of my argument."..Still don't see relevance.


          • Originally posted by RGJesus View Post
            Help me! Maybe you can. I'm changing from being a Trinitarian to Unitarian.

            After some 30 years of searching through study and prayer, I'm coming to the conclusion that (1) the God of the Bible is not three persons in one being, but rather one person one being and (2) Jesus is not Almighty God, but a sinless human being miraculously, virginally conceived of Mary. I'm still unsure about the Spirit.

            I'm late to this thread having just joined the site recently but hope this helps a bit ..........(apologies for the length). If it is helpful, fine….if not, that is fine also.

            Years ago, I read a book by a priest, Gregory Baum, called ‘Man Becoming’ - it is a Christian Anthropology, a study of man and God.

            Baum wrote
            about a mother spending a typical day with her little girl or boy, sharing daily activities like waking up, getting dressed, meals, playing, naptime, reading stories, perhaps watching part of a favorite movie, etc. In and through all these activities is the unconditional love that the mother showers on the child.
            You can imagine, or perhaps remember, how much 'loving' the child (or two or three children) costs you. Sometimes, at the end of the day, the mother is drained. Yet she gives love even when her own need might be great or overwhelming. It is also in the course of each day, that the mother needs to receive the very same gift she has been giving: love. And she receives it from a good friend or her parents who call or stop by, from a sibling, from her spouse or even from the child that she has been loving all day.

            What do we have here? The mother, who gives the gift of love, needs to receive from others the very thing she gives. And the same is true of those (spouse, friend, sibling, parent) who give her the gift: they too need to receive from others the very thing they give. No one owns what he or she gives - all stand in need of it. We dont own Love. We give more than we have; we give more than we are.

            What does the mother’s love do for the child? Everything! It is love, expressed in countless ways, gives the child not only the basics for a good existence but so much more. It, quite literally, gives the child Life: in each of these moments and because of these moments the child is empowered to live to live fully, to (gradually) become Human, i.e. the Image of the Father.

            Think about a life, your life, your child's life, any human life showered with love. Think about what love does for the human being. Now think of a life where such love is wanting. Is there anything more powerful, more necessary in our lives? Love gives life; love builds human beings.

            Looking more deeply at the mothers interaction with the baby, we can see that love gives in different ways:
            First and obviously, the initial gift of love creates the child.

            Second, from the first moments of existence and continuing throughout his or her life, the parents (and the larger human community) speak to the child. Their words help the baby to grow in awareness, learn language and identify and name the world around her. Their words help the child to stay safe and grow as a person. "Hot" certainly is meant to spare pain, "look both waysis meant to protect and "No" is a high value word in many situations. The parents’ words teach, pass judgment and call for continued growth into a full human life. If we're lucky and loved, this endless human dialogue continues as we respond to the words that are heard throughout life, in all aspects of life.

            Third, as the Mother speaks –calls, teaches and judges the child - love also gives the child the courage to respond to the ever-present challenge to grow up, gradually becoming a fully human being. It is love's encouragement that transforms knowing into action. It's not easy to accept responsibility, it’s not easy to learn, grow, overcome, fail and rise - but it can be done. The simple difference is courage born of love.

            In summary, the gift that is love is triune: love creates, love calls, love encourages. It goes without saying that love is something we do naturally. However, although love is done by us - it is not us. There is something morein out love, something moreto out words - than meets the eye. Ever-present, the Moreis in the midst of humanity is God, i.e. Love itSelf. There in an intimacy to the relation of God and man: so subtle that it is often missed, so powerful that it thrives even when unrecognized.

            It is in Love that we live, move and have our being. Love is in, with and through us. God is Being/Father/Creator/Source/Destiny; God is the Word that echoes in our words calling, judging, challenging us; God is Spirit/Paraclete/Comforter/Encourager who empowers us to Life. God-in-man is the timeless way of God so that we might become the embodiment (the incarnation) of Love and thereby have abundant Life.

            In his Gospel, John says that God is Love: the Presence at the heart of existence is Love. As seen in the example of the mother and child, Love is the very “stuff”of life. What the mother gives the child is, quite simply, God. Or, better, God gives himSelf in and through the mother: this is revelation, the self-revealing or the self-giving of God to us.

            There is only Being, there is only God - and Humanity, indeed all creation, lives and moves and has its being in God (Paul). Such is the intimacy of God and humanity. An intimacy know by Jesus who called God Abba - a child's name for his father, best translated as Daddy or Dada. This is the closeness of Abba with his child, with all his children.

            Jesus, the Word shouted from on High, said, “Behold, the Kingdom of God is upon you.” Love is upon you and it always was.

            Anyway, this is, at this time, my understanding of the Trinity.
            Last edited by thormas; 10-03-2020, 06:40 PM.


            • Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post

              The God-man Jesus died. Separating the two natures is Nestorianism.
              Jesus is, as it were, the Means by Whom the Impassible, Eternal and Immortal Holy God tasted death for sinners.
              God cannot die. But He can create a sinless human nature capable of death, and can assume that created nature “into” His own. And in the man Jesus, He did so.

              If that is not shocking, even blasphemous, it should be, For that is what God was prepared to do, and be, for sinners. Tne Incarnatiob is blasphemous. Tne Crucifixion is blasphemous. They are blasphemous because - on tne face of it - they contradict the OT teaching about God’s Holiness, Eternity, and Righteousness. In Christ Crucified, God “Who knew no sin”, Who cannot look upon sin, “became sin for us, that in [Christ] we might become the Righteousness of God”.

              The Two Natures of “God-with-us”, Who is Jesus Christ, are inseparable, eternally. This indissoluble union of God with man changes man - it changes God not at all. God is not changed by what He does - not by creating the universe from nothing, nor by re-creating it in and through Christ. God is in no way changed by His action to or in creatures. This re-creative Divine action is, of course, the foundation and warrant for the devotion, love, praise, honour, veneration, & homage paid by the ancient Churches to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the God-bearer.

              If we separate the Two Natures, we greatly injure what God the Father has done for us in His Son. We weaken the Incarnation, the Public Life of Christ, the passages that show Him suffering hunger, thirst, weariness, opposition, bodily pain, grief, and death. His Resurrection, His victory over death, His Resurrection appearances, His Ascension to the Father, His Heavenly Mediation & Intercession, and the hope of His Coming Again, and His Judgement of all mankind, are all weakened; because the reality of His own experience of what it is to be human in the world in every respect is one of the strongest motives we can have to look to Him as our Saviour. In fact, it is this indissoluble union between our humanity, and His Glorious, Resurrected, Sacred Humanity, that makes Him, not in words alone, but in reality, our Kinsman-Redeemer. The union of His Glorified, Divinised Humanity with our humanity makes Him “bone of our bones, and flesh of our flesh”. If He is not the God-man, He ceases to be our Kinsman-Redeemer, for then His relation to us ceases to be one of full union with us.

              The reality of the Incarnation of God the Word is also basic to His Kingship over us.
              Last edited by Rushing Jaws; 12-16-2020, 08:55 PM.


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