Help me! I'm beginning to abandon the Trinity.

[Unitarian101]

No. Our flesh dies. That's all.

That's unscriptural. The bible said that Jesus Christ (someone) died, not that his flesh (something) died:

συνίστησιν δὲ τὴν ἑαυτοῦ ἀγάπην εἰς ἡμᾶς ὁ Θεὸς ὅτι ἔτι ἁμαρτωλῶν ὄντων ἡμῶν Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν.

Trinitarians teach that every human being is a person (hypostasis) with human nature (ousia) .The two are not to be confused. According to Trinitarian orthodoxy, you're a human person with human nature. "Person" answers the question of "who" you are, and "nature" answers the question of "what" you are. So when you say that "my flesh dies, that's all" you're in fact denying that you yourself (your person) die.

[Bill the Cat]

That's unscriptural.

No it is not! Physical death is the separation of our bodies from our spirits.

Eccl 12:7 "the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
James 2:26 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

The bible said that Jesus Christ (someone) died, not that his flesh (something) died:

And someONE died (Jesus) by someTHING (His flesh) dying.

Trinitarians teach that every human being is a person (hypostasis) with human nature (ousia) .The two are not to be confused. According to Trinitarian orthodoxy, you're a human person with human nature. "Person" answers the question of "who" you are, and "nature" answers the question of "what" you are. So when you say that "my flesh dies, that's all" you're in fact denying that you yourself (your person) die.

And that is correct. I do not die as an existent being. My flesh dies. I do not die as a person. My spirit is and will be forever alive.

[Unitarian101]

No it is not! Physical death is the separation of our bodies from our spirits.

Eccl 12:7 "the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
James 2:26 "For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."




And someONE died (Jesus) by someTHING (His flesh) dying.





And that is correct. I do not die as an existent being. My flesh dies. I do not die as a person. My spirit is and will be forever alive.

So let's accept this (red above) definition of "death" as being correct and scriptural for the sake of argument. But the bible tells us in various scriptures that God does not "die" (ie. He is not separated from his body). So if Jesus was God, he could not have died, i.e. a separation of his body from his spirit could not have taken place.

[Jeff]

Nothing to worry about. All things are upheld by God's command. There is no command recorded in all of scripture that you should believe those things that trinitarian's assert.

[Sparko]

So let's accept this (red above) definition of "death" as being correct and scriptural for the sake of argument. But the bible tells us in various scriptures that God does not "die" (ie. He is not separated from his body). So if Jesus was God, he could not have died, i.e. a separation of his body from his spirit could not have taken place.

The bible says believers don't "die" either, but go to be with the Lord. Death is talked about in different contexts in the bible. There is physical death and there is spiritual death. Jesus died not only a physical death but he was forsaken by the Father to pay for our sins. He did not go back to the Father until after his ascension.


John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 8:51
Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

[Unitarian101]

The bible says believers don't "die" either, but go to be with the Lord. Death is talked about in different contexts in the bible. There is physical death and there is spiritual death. Jesus died not only a physical death but he was forsaken by the Father to pay for our sins. He did not go back to the Father until after his ascension.


John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 8:51
Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”

When the bible says the following which definition of "die" do you have in mind:

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

συνίστησιν δὲ τὴν ἑαυτοῦ ἀγάπην εἰς ἡμᾶς ὁ Θεὸς ὅτι ἔτι ἁμαρτωλῶν ὄντων ἡμῶν Χριστὸς ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἀπέθανεν.

Romans 5:8

[Sparko]

When the bible says the following which definition of "die" do you have in mind:



Romans 5:8

Both. Jesus died physically and he was spiritually forsaken by the Father to pay for our sins.

Jesus’ cry, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) has puzzled many. Jesus is actually quoting the opening line of Psalm 22 and using it to express His deep agony on the cross. He is suffering the penalty for our sin, in our place.

The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death includes two dimensions—physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Since Jesus was dying for our sin as our substitute, He was experiencing the agony of separation from His Father. It was the agony of hell.

There is an unfathomable mystery here. Jesus was both God and man united in one divine Person. He could not suffer and die with respect to His deity, but He could suffer the agony of separation from the Father and actually die physically with respect to His humanity. And He did, that we might, through repentance from sin and faith in Him as our Savior and Lord, be forgiven of our sin and reconciled with God.

“We all, like sheep, have gone astray … and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6).

Our greatest need is for forgiveness—and Christ came to make that forgiveness possible. Christ bridged the gap between God and man, and by faith in Him that gulf can be erased and we can come to know God personally. Faith is not just an idea in our minds or even a conviction in our hearts. It is a commitment of our lives to God and His truth.

Let God’s Word, the Bible, be the source of your understanding about God and His love. But beyond that, open your heart to Christ and commit your life to Him. It is the most important step you will ever take.
https://billygraham.org/answer/did-g...-on-the-cross/

[Bill the Cat]

Nothing to worry about. All things are upheld by God's command. There is no command recorded in all of scripture that you should believe those things that trinitarian's assert.

Moderated By: Bill the Cat

Jeff, if you are not a Trinitarian, forum rules require you to not use the faith tag Christian. Please change it to reflect your particular beliefs.

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

[Unitarian101]

Both. Jesus died physically and he was spiritually forsaken by the Father to pay for our sins.

Jesus’ cry, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34) has puzzled many. Jesus is actually quoting the opening line of Psalm 22 and using it to express His deep agony on the cross. He is suffering the penalty for our sin, in our place.

The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Death includes two dimensions—physical and spiritual. Physical death is the separation of the spirit from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the spirit from God. Since Jesus was dying for our sin as our substitute, He was experiencing the agony of separation from His Father. It was the agony of hell.

There is an unfathomable mystery here. Jesus was both God and man united in one divine Person. He could not suffer and die with respect to His deity, but He could suffer the agony of separation from the Father and actually die physically with respect to His humanity. And He did, that we might, through repentance from sin and faith in Him as our Savior and Lord, be forgiven of our sin and reconciled with God.

“We all, like sheep, have gone astray … and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all” (Isaiah 53:6).

Our greatest need is for forgiveness—and Christ came to make that forgiveness possible. Christ bridged the gap between God and man, and by faith in Him that gulf can be erased and we can come to know God personally. Faith is not just an idea in our minds or even a conviction in our hearts. It is a commitment of our lives to God and His truth.

Let God’s Word, the Bible, be the source of your understanding about God and His love. But beyond that, open your heart to Christ and commit your life to Him. It is the most important step you will ever take.
https://billygraham.org/answer/did-g...-on-the-cross/

So you have two definitions of death (so far) depending on context. Could you define them ?

(1) What do you mean "die physically" ?

(2) What do you mean by "die spiritually" ?

FWIW, scripture does not qualify death the way that you do in reference to Jesus, it simply says that he died, the same way it says that the swine died :

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς Ὑπάγετε. οἱ δὲ ἐξελθόντες ἀπῆλθον εἰς τοὺς χοίρους· καὶ ἰδοὺ ὥρμησεν πᾶσα ἡ ἀγέλη κατὰ τοῦ κρημνοῦ εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν, καὶ ἀπέθανον ἐν τοῖς ὕδασιν.

Matthew 8:32

[Sparko]

So you have two definitions of death (so far) depending on context. Could you define them ?

(1) What do you mean "die physically" ?

(2) What do you mean by "die spiritually" ?

FWIW, scripture does not qualify death the way that you do in reference to Jesus, it simply says that he died, the same way it says that the swine died :



Matthew 8:32

It says what I mean right there in my post.

[JonathanL]

It says what I mean right there in my post.

You're expecting a unitarian to read what a text says, instead of what they imagine it to say?

[Jeff]

Will do Bill. Though I am a Christian in that I have entered through the narrow gate, I will comply.

[Bill the Cat]

Will do Bill. Though I am a Christian in that I have entered through the narrow gate, I will comply.

Thanks for your understanding and cordiality.

[Jeff]

Ok, now that I've changed my label to "unorthodox Christian", I should be unhindered in expressing my unorthodox faith. As I was saying, there are no commands from above that require us to bow to the Trinitarian notions. Wouldn't at all worry about what they assert as binding. They haven't a clue what they are speaking about... as they imply when they say that they really can't fully comprehend what they are asserting.

[Cerebrum123]

Ok, now that I've changed my label to "unorthodox Christian", I should be unhindered in expressing my unorthodox faith. As I was saying, there are no commands from above that require us to bow to the Trinitarian notions. Wouldn't at all worry about what they assert as binding. They haven't a clue what they are speaking about... as they imply when they say that they really can't fully comprehend what they are asserting.

The faith tags are for showing who can post where. You can post your unorthodox views in this subforum, but there are a few for Orthodox Christians only. There are several areas that only allow specific people to post. Fraternity is for guys only, Sorority is for girls only, Naturalism is for atheist and agnostics only etc.