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The Decline of Mormonism

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
    Like lose the sci-fi/fantasy element of human aliens that can turn into gods given the right conditions? Wait, did I just make another joke about aliens with superpowers that look just like humans?
    Jesus Christ is an "Extraterrestrial"

    Full Definition of EXTRATERRESTRIAL
    : originating, existing, or occurring outside the earth or its atmosphere <extraterrestrial life>

    Since Jesus, his spirit, did not come from the Earth, then he is an "alien".

    Plus, he looks like a human (HE IS a Human) and had "superpowers".

    I guess all of Christianity is "sci-fi/fantasy" ... according to your criteria anyways....

    -7up

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      I tend to agree that it would be difficult to retain the trappings of, really, anything and move toward orthodoxy. Maybe with an extreme form of accomodationism but I just don't see that happening with the majority of believers.


      I predict that "Christians" will become more "Mormon" in their doctrine, not the other way around.

      Scholarship is moving that way.

      -Look how Christians changed their view concerning those who die in childhood without baptism would be damned. (which led to the practice of infant baptism early on in Christian history. (Or even those adults who die without hearing the gospel of Christ at all... Are they all damned to hell for eternity? Take a survey of Christians today and compare it to history, you will see that this perspective has changed.)
      -The "Social Trinitarinism" view is far closer to LDS theology than previous forms of Trinitiarianism (Moving to the idea 3 separate centers of consciousness).
      -Look at Old Testament Scholar John H. Walton and his teaching that Genesis 1-2 is essentially a "Temple Text", which fits into Mormonism very well. He also proposes that God's creation is organizing pre-existing things to God's purpose...
      -The rejection of ex nihilo will be next in Christianity. We discussed this at length previously on this forum. Old Testament Jewish scholars like John Levenson has advanced the idea of God creating from something rather than nothing. The Biblical exegesis of this was pounded out decades ago by Bruce K. Waltke (surprisingly published multiple times by the Western Conservative Baptist Seminary). David Ray Griffin and other Christian theologians came to realize the philosophical problem of evil that occurs with creation out of nothing, and try to deal with in in "process theology", which necessarily has to reject ex nihilo. Of course the extensive historical details of the emergence of ex nihilo were expressed by Gerhard May, in his scholarly work, which concluded that Ex Nihilo, as understood today, was developed in the mid to end of the second century A.D. Oh, and Blake Ostler shut down William Lane Craig's attempt to hold on to "ex nihilo" in his extensive defense; to which William Lane Craig and crew had no response.

      Pretty soon; those number of Christians who believe in Ex Nihilo, will be akin to those who believe that the Earth was literally created in 7 , twenty four hour days. It is an indefensible position historically speaking, Biblically speaking, and philosophically speaking.

      The Decline of Mormonism is only going to go along with of the Decline of spirituality altogether. Society is becoming more secular ... period. The mainstream Christians are partly to blame for that, because they present to the world a false form of Christianity which has a theodicy which is a philosophical nightmare .. again, which is impossible to defend, and thus is easy for the masses in society to reject.

      Congratulations on that to all of you.

      -7up

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Catherine Aurelia View Post
        I find it interesting that you equate people growing intellectually to the rejection of modern prophets. Seems odd that a Christian would make the case for increased intelligence necessarily means a rejection of gospel truths.

        Yeah,

        "2. ---------------- does not appeal to those with any intellectual capabilities. It appeals to the "gut" and to the "warm fuzzyists," but not to thinking people."


        Fill the blank with "Christianity". It works just as well.

        Christians LOVE the idea that the Holy Spirit can confirm truth ... UNTIL it confirms to them that the LDS church is true. Then they just reject that whole silly Holy Spirit thing.


        and number 5 on the list reminds me of something...

        "5. White Disneyworld type temples turn off a lot of people in today's economy where you have so many homeless and needy."


        Not only do LDS help the needy, but the person who started this thread should study the New Testament: John 12:4-6 .... he will find that he is playing the part of Judas.


        -7up
        Last edited by seven7up; 12-12-2015, 04:26 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Doctrine Matters View Post
          From a Free Republic website coverage of a news segment dealing with the issue:

          "From the news segment: A new report quotes an LDS general authority who said more members are falling away today than any time in the past 175 years...according to a recent Reuters article citing LDS General Authority Marlin K. Jensen, for the church as a whole, the record in going in a different direction. Elder Jensen told the news outlet times have changed, and "attrition has accelerated in the last five or 10 years." Some church members ABC 4 talked to said they see the faithful leaving. "I'm from Chile and a lot of people just stop attending, they take it a little bit too casual," said Francisco Jerez, LDS Church member. So how bad is it getting? Right now there are more than 14 million members of the church worldwide. But according to the article, sociologists estimate active membership may as few as only five million."



          4. Young people on the whole aren't into the restrictions and demands Mormonism imposes.

          People would rather continue in SIN, rather than following Christ. No surprise there. They want to have sex outside of marriage, party, etc.


          -7up

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
            I predict that "Christians" will become more "Mormon" in their doctrine, not the other way around.

            Scholarship is moving that way.

            -Look how Christians changed their view concerning those who die in childhood without baptism would be damned. (which led to the practice of infant baptism early on in Christian history. (Or even those adults who die without hearing the gospel of Christ at all... Are they all damned to hell for eternity? Take a survey of Christians today and compare it to history, you will see that this perspective has changed.)
            -The "Social Trinitarinism" view is far closer to LDS theology than previous forms of Trinitiarianism (Moving to the idea 3 separate centers of consciousness).
            -Look at Old Testament Scholar John H. Walton and his teaching that Genesis 1-2 is essentially a "Temple Text", which fits into Mormonism very well. He also proposes that God's creation is organizing pre-existing things to God's purpose...
            -The rejection of ex nihilo will be next in Christianity. We discussed this at length previously on this forum. Old Testament Jewish scholars like John Levenson has advanced the idea of God creating from something rather than nothing. The Biblical exegesis of this was pounded out decades ago by Bruce K. Waltke (surprisingly published multiple times by the Western Conservative Baptist Seminary). David Ray Griffin and other Christian theologians came to realize the philosophical problem of evil that occurs with creation out of nothing, and try to deal with in in "process theology", which necessarily has to reject ex nihilo. Of course the extensive historical details of the emergence of ex nihilo were expressed by Gerhard May, in his scholarly work, which concluded that Ex Nihilo, as understood today, was developed in the mid to end of the second century A.D. Oh, and Blake Ostler shut down William Lane Craig's attempt to hold on to "ex nihilo" in his extensive defense; to which William Lane Craig and crew had no response.

            Pretty soon; those number of Christians who believe in Ex Nihilo, will be akin to those who believe that the Earth was literally created in 7 , twenty four hour days. It is an indefensible position historically speaking, Biblically speaking, and philosophically speaking.

            The Decline of Mormonism is only going to go along with of the Decline of spirituality altogether. Society is becoming more secular ... period. The mainstream Christians are partly to blame for that, because they present to the world a false form of Christianity which has a theodicy which is a philosophical nightmare .. again, which is impossible to defend, and thus is easy for the masses in society to reject.

            Congratulations on that to all of you.

            -7up
            Still addicted to name dropping, I see...
            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            - Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
              Still addicted to name dropping, I see...

              Actually, I posted the links, not just the names.

              People can investigate the truth for themselves, ... if they are interested. If not, they can stay here and hang out with you and Cow Poke.

              -7up

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                Actually, I posted the links, not just the names.

                People can investigate the truth for themselves, ... if they are interested. If not, they can study with the Mormons.

                -7up
                Fixed it for ya
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  Of course the extensive historical details of the emergence of ex nihilo were expressed by Gerhard May, in his scholarly work, which concluded that Ex Nihilo, as understood today, was developed in the mid to end of the second century A.D.
                  Gerhard May does so by suppressing or waving away contrary data.
                  Source: Paul Copan

                  Many have suggested that the intertestamental book of 2 Maccabees states clearly the traditional doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. There a mother pleads with her son willingly to accept torture rather than recant his beliefs:

                  I beg you, child, look at the sky and the earth; see all that is in them and realize that God made them out of nothing, and that man comes into being in the same way. (7:28)

                  Although May thinks that this passage does not have the necessary doctrinal context for the idea of creatio ex nihilo (pp. 6, 16), others are not so convinced. For example, Gerhard von Rad maintains, "The conceptional formulation creatio ex nihilo is first found" in this passage. Moreover, to say that there was no doctrinal context at all for such a statement does not seem quite right. After all, the Jewish understanding of creation was that "the world as a whole can only be understood in the context of its coming into being." It is, then, not a far step from this assumption to creation out of nothing.

                  We find another reference to creation out of nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls (which May does not even mention):

                  From the God of Knowledge comes all that is and shall be. Before ever they existed He established their whole design, and when, as ordained for them, they come into being, it is in accord with His glorious design that they accomplish their task without change. (1QS 3:15)

                  The noted first-century rabbi, Gamaliel, seems to have reflected this concept of creation in his thinking (although May calls this an "isolated" reference [p. 23]). A philosopher challenged him, "Your God was indeed a great artist, but he had good materials [unformed space/void, darkness, water, wind, and the deep] to help him." Gamaliel, responded, "All of them are explicitly described as having been created by him [and not as preexistent]."

                  In the early Christian homily, Shepherd of Hermas, the first command is to believe that God brought all things "into existence out of non-existence."

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  In fact, those in the early centuries who claimed that God created out of formless matter (Philo, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria) were heavily influenced by Platonism (which held precisely that).
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    Gerhard May does so by suppressing or waving away contrary data.
                    Source: Paul Copan

                    Many have suggested that the intertestamental book of 2 Maccabees states clearly the traditional doctrine of creatio ex nihilo. There a mother pleads with her son willingly to accept torture rather than recant his beliefs:

                    I beg you, child, look at the sky and the earth; see all that is in them and realize that God made them out of nothing, and that man comes into being in the same way. (7:28)

                    Although May thinks that this passage does not have the necessary doctrinal context for the idea of creatio ex nihilo (pp. 6, 16), others are not so convinced. For example, Gerhard von Rad maintains, "The conceptional formulation creatio ex nihilo is first found" in this passage. Moreover, to say that there was no doctrinal context at all for such a statement does not seem quite right. After all, the Jewish understanding of creation was that "the world as a whole can only be understood in the context of its coming into being." It is, then, not a far step from this assumption to creation out of nothing.

                    We find another reference to creation out of nothing in the Dead Sea Scrolls (which May does not even mention):

                    From the God of Knowledge comes all that is and shall be. Before ever they existed He established their whole design, and when, as ordained for them, they come into being, it is in accord with His glorious design that they accomplish their task without change. (1QS 3:15)

                    The noted first-century rabbi, Gamaliel, seems to have reflected this concept of creation in his thinking (although May calls this an "isolated" reference [p. 23]). A philosopher challenged him, "Your God was indeed a great artist, but he had good materials [unformed space/void, darkness, water, wind, and the deep] to help him." Gamaliel, responded, "All of them are explicitly described as having been created by him [and not as preexistent]."

                    In the early Christian homily, Shepherd of Hermas, the first command is to believe that God brought all things "into existence out of non-existence."

                    © Copyright Original Source



                    In fact, those in the early centuries who claimed that God created out of formless matter (Philo, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria) were heavily influenced by Platonism (which held precisely that).
                    I had posted precisely these arguments on the old site. He'll waffle with "it can be translated" and such nonsense.
                    That's what
                    - She

                    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                    - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                    - Stephen R. Donaldson

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                      Actually, I posted the links, not just the names.

                      People can investigate the truth for themselves, ... if they are interested. If not, they can stay here and hang out with you and Cow Poke.

                      -7up
                      As I post links and evidence to rebut your links.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      - Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Doctrine Matters View Post
                        Mormonism has had its hay day, but those days are over. People grow up intellectually. They don't buy into modern "prophets" who supposedly speak for God. They've seen the Koresh and Jones debacles. They are far more sophisticated than early credulous followers of Joe Smith - education does count. Here are some reasons Mormonism is on its way out:

                        1. The internet has exposed many things about Mormonism that stop people dead in their tracks if they are considering it as a religious choice.
                        2. Mormonism does not appeal to those with any intellectual capabilities. It appeals to the "gut" and to the "warm fuzzyists," but not to thinking people.
                        3. Mormonism stands or falls with Joseph Smith - and he has been proven to be a liar, a womanizer (look at the "essays") and somebody that people of today really don't consider to be the idolatrous object worthy of praise which Mormons have always imputed to Smith.
                        4. Young people on the whole aren't into the restrictions and demands Mormonism imposes.
                        5. White Disneyworld type temples turn off a lot of people in today's economy where you have so many homeless and needy.
                        6. Thanks to Newnamenoah, Mormon temple rites have been exposed and are seen by many as a Masonic-based charade. Freemasonry was the model of the temple rites, and it's in decline as well.

                        That's just some of the things I can think of off the top of my head.
                        I think you need to seek a little bit of love from the Most High Spirit.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          The rejection of "modern prophets" of Mormonism is more about realizing their false doctrines than about growing in intellect. There are no "gospel truths" in Mormonism. Every doctrine pilfered from Christianity is warped by others that make them internally incoherent.
                          Why would you say this?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                            Jesus Christ is an "Extraterrestrial"

                            Full Definition of EXTRATERRESTRIAL
                            : originating, existing, or occurring outside the earth or its atmosphere <extraterrestrial life>

                            Since Jesus, his spirit, did not come from the Earth, then he is an "alien".

                            Plus, he looks like a human (HE IS a Human) and had "superpowers".

                            I guess all of Christianity is "sci-fi/fantasy" ... according to your criteria anyways....

                            -7up
                            haha so true!

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Doctrine Matters View Post
                              The average convert lasts less than a year. The "growth" is mostly in third world countries where Mormon "missionaries" capitalize on the hard work of Christian missionaries who have preached the Gospel. My daughter and family do missionary work in Zambia and the Mormons will come in and lure the poor new Christians away. Also, Mormons tend to have more children than non-Mormons, and new babies are projected by the cult to be members, and are counted as such, even though they aren't baptized until age 8. If a person does not show up at a LDS Chapel for years and years, he is still counted as a member, even though he has left and is attending the Calvary Chapel down the street - a person must resign formerly to get off the membership rolls.
                              Please knock off with the cult references. Mormonism is not a cult.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Apocalypticsights View Post
                                Why would you say this?
                                Years of study.
                                That's what
                                - She

                                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                                - Stephen R. Donaldson

                                Comment

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