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John the Apostle and the Three Nephites

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  • John the Apostle and the Three Nephites

    According to the Mormon Church, John the Apostle is still roaming the earth, having never died. Along with John the Three Nephites (who were supposedly appointed apostles by Jesus in the New World) are also still alive. If this is true, how could there have been a total apostasy of the Church established by Jesus Christ? Joseph Smith didn't have to restore anything since four of Christ's apostles still walked the earth according to Mormonism!

    This article by Bill McKeever deals with this issue: http://www.mrm.org/surviving-apostles

    These are the kind of questions we need Mormons to confront and think about.
    Last edited by Doctrine Matters; 07-24-2015, 12:04 PM.

  • #2
    Even apostles can apostasize, like Judas. Didn't Joseph Smith boast at one point that he was better than Jesus, because none of his apostles had apostasized?
    Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

    Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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    I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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    • #3
      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
      Even apostles can apostasize, like Judas. Didn't Joseph Smith boast at one point that he was better than Jesus, because none of his apostles had apostasized?
      Joseph Smith, ever the bragger said, "God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. " History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

      Of course this was patently false since many Mormons left his church in Kirtland, Ohio, after Smith's bank fraud activity.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
        Even apostles can apostasize, like Judas. Didn't Joseph Smith boast at one point that he was better than Jesus, because none of his apostles had apostasized?
        I think that was just before his wife gave him a beatdown for running a bar in the hotel he owned.
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Doctrine Matters View Post
          The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. "
          I believe some of the members of the mob that killed him were his own followers who had finally "had it up to here".
          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            I think that was just before his wife gave him a beatdown for running a bar in the hotel he owned.
            Yeah, Joe wasn't known for keeping the supposedly God-revealed "Word of Wisdom."

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Doctrine Matters View Post
              Joseph Smith, ever the bragger said, "God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. " History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409

              This is not especially relevant to the point I was making.

              Of course this was patently false since many Mormons left his church in Kirtland, Ohio, after Smith's bank fraud activity.
              Was that quote uttered before or after Kirtland? Did the Kirtland bank scam drive away a majority or minority of his followers?
              Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

              Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
              sigpic
              I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

              Comment


              • #8
                Wait.. wouldn't it be obvious if some guys were still around after thousands of years?
                If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                  Wait.. wouldn't it be obvious if some guys were still around after thousands of years?
                  Not necessarily. Read Poul Anderson's Boat of a Million Years sometime.
                  Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                  Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                  sigpic
                  I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                    This is not especially relevant to the point I was making.

                    Was that quote uttered before or after Kirtland? Did the Kirtland bank scam drive away a majority or minority of his followers?
                    Actually, about a month before Smith's demise!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                      Wait.. wouldn't it be obvious if some guys were still around after thousands of years?
                      Well, if four of Christ's Apostles were still living they'd be leading the Church, right? Not allowing it to drift into total apostasy until the occultist, Joe Smith, was visited by a dead spirit (Moroni) who had become an angel (humans do not become angels other than in Swedenborgianism and folk religion), and told where to dig up gold or golden or shiny or whatever plates.

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