Originally posted by carbon dioxide
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Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!
This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.
Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin
Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.
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LDS Church: Mormon founder Joseph Smith wed 40 wives
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostCult members like Abraham and Jacob?
Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostYou do know that the Bible is a great resource one can go to defend the practice. You do know that the only reason people have a problem with the practice is they have a modern, westernized view that it is wrong. If one looks at notable Christians who in history who did not grow up with a modern, westernized view, polygamy is not that big of a deal. Justin Martyr and Augustine
"Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the laws forbid it." (Augustine, Reply to Faustus 22:47, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Series 1, 4:288)
And in the case of Jacob he says it was done out of necessity "for the procreation of children." Where is the evidence that Smith had to take on multiple wives in order to increase the Mormon population -- especially since many of the women were already Mormons and married (they could increase the Mormon population by having children with their legitimate husbands). No, it looks like for Smith it was the other reason -- "for sensual gratification," which Augustine does not condone.
Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostMartin Luther takes a view that is found in Jacob 2 in the Book of Mormon.
"Consequently it is my opinion that a Christian is not free to marry several wives unless God commands him [See Jacob 2:30] to go beyond the liberty which is conditioned by love."(Luther to Joseph Levin Metzsch, 9 December 1526, in Theodore G. Tappert, ed. and trans., Luther: Letters of Spiritual Counsel, vol. 18 of the Library of Christian Classics (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1955), p. 276)
Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostEven more modern day Christians who live in Africa have not been completely against it.
"Baptist and Methodist missions baptize those who entered a polygamous marriage before coming into contact with the Gospel or, more specifically, before making a decision to accept Christ. They do not consider polygamy a sin but feel that it is not the ideal of God." (Robert Hoist, in International Review of Missions 56 (April 1967): 205)
They are not condoning people entering polygamous relationships after becoming Christian but rather accepting the reality that some did this prior to becoming Christian. I would disagree about it not being a sin but moreover it is not on par with someone declaring that he was commanded by God to take other people's wives as his own (even threatened with violence if he didn't!).
Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostMistakes may have been made when the LDS Church instituted polygamy.
Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostThat is to be expected when anything new is started.
Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostI avoid finding too much fault simply because if I was in the position, I probably would not have done much better.
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostIt's amazing the ridiculous lengths Mormons will go to excuse Joseph Smith's antics. That alone should alert them that something is wrong with their religion.
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It's amazing the ridiculous lengths Mormons will go to excuse Joseph Smith's antics. That alone should alert them that something is wrong with their religion.
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If polygamy was an "Abrahamic test" then God would have stopped Smith before he actually did it, like he did Abraham.
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostCult members like Abraham and Jacob?
You do know that the Bible is a great resource one can go to defend the practice.
You do know that the only reason people have a problem with the practice is they have a modern, westernized view that it is wrong.
"Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the laws forbid it." (Augustine, Reply to Faustus 22:47, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Series 1, 4:288)
2. This is the opinion of Augustine, and not the word of God. This is not a direct revelation from God saying that polygamy is A-OK as long as it's legal.
The same goes for Justin Martyr and Martin Luther.
"Baptist and Methodist missions baptize those who entered a polygamous marriage before coming into contact with the Gospel or, more specifically, before making a decision to accept Christ. They do not consider polygamy a sin but feel that it is not the ideal of God." (Robert Hoist, in International Review of Missions 56 (April 1967): 205)
Mistakes may have been made when the LDS Church instituted polygamy. That is to be expected when anything new is started. Especially when what is being done is hard and controversial. I avoid finding too much fault simply because if I was in the position, I probably would not have done much better.
And while we're on this topic, no LDS poster has responded to this post of mine on polygamy.
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostOne article suggested that most Mormons have believed that Joseph Smith was only married to Emma. I always laugh at claims like this. What study can they cite to support it. Pretty much every member I have known is well aware about the practice of polygamy. How can they not when the Manifesto is in the LDS standard works? Of course the practice had to start somewhere. Of course Joseph Smith had more than one wife. Now members may differ on their knowledge of the subject as one would expect in any population. Some people know more on a subject than others but there is no shock here to the majority of members. I think the best number of wives he had was 35 but whether 35 or 40 is not that big of a difference.
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostMy view is that only Jesus was perfect.
Everyone else including all the important figures in the Bible made mistakes.
I could go on and on.
Perhaps you think prophets are perfect, infallible men who never make mistakes.
That is not my view of what a prophet is.
.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostAbsolutely no doubt about it.
Yeah, so much for a "for really" prophet of God!
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostMistakes may have been made when the LDS Church instituted polygamy.
That is to be expected when anything new is started. Especially when what is being done is hard and controversial. I avoid finding too much fault simply because if I was in the position, I probably would not have done much better.
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Originally posted by Kind Debater View PostI've been reading the responses to this on a Mormon forum. There's at least one person who still insists that Smith wasn't a polygamist. Many seem to chalk up Smith's denials of polygamy to either his being human or to having to keep it secret, even from the church at large, due to persecution (particularly from people who left the church).
Polygamy is a frequent topic there. It breaks my heart that 1) there are several LDS who are asking really good questions* about this and other topics, but they still believe and 2) there are people who have the right attitude, if you will, of being committed to God no matter what, but they use this to defend JS and polygamy.
*Someone even pointed out that one of the things that bothers them is how many cult leaders institute polygamy within their cults.
"Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the laws forbid it." (Augustine, Reply to Faustus 22:47, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Series 1, 4:288)
"And this one fall of David, in the matter of Uriah's wife, proves, sirs," I said, "that the patriarchs had many wives, not to commit fornication, but that a certain dispensation and all mysteries might be accomplished by them; since, if it were allowable to take any wife, or as many wives as one chooses, and how he chooses, which the men of your nation do over all the earth, wherever they sojourn, or wherever they have been sent, taking women under the name of marriage, much more would David have been permitted to do this." (Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho 141, in Ante-Nicene Fathers 1:270)
Martin Luther takes a view that is found in Jacob 2 in the Book of Mormon.
"Consequently it is my opinion that a Christian is not free to marry several wives unless God commands him [See Jacob 2:30] to go beyond the liberty which is conditioned by love."(Luther to Joseph Levin Metzsch, 9 December 1526, in Theodore G. Tappert, ed. and trans., Luther: Letters of Spiritual Counsel, vol. 18 of the Library of Christian Classics (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1955), p. 276)
Even more modern day Christians who live in Africa have not been completely against it.
"Baptist and Methodist missions baptize those who entered a polygamous marriage before coming into contact with the Gospel or, more specifically, before making a decision to accept Christ. They do not consider polygamy a sin but feel that it is not the ideal of God." (Robert Hoist, in International Review of Missions 56 (April 1967): 205)
"Let it be publicly declared that a polygamous African church may still be classified as a Christian church, even while monogamy remains the Christian norm, and that no such church will be excluded from Christian councils and full Christian fellowship solely because of its polygamy." (H. W. Turner, "Monogamy: A Mark of the Church?" International Review of Missions 55 (July 1966): 321)
Mistakes may have been made when the LDS Church instituted polygamy. That is to be expected when anything new is started. Especially when what is being done is hard and controversial. I avoid finding too much fault simply because if I was in the position, I probably would not have done much better.
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Originally posted by carbon dioxide View PostI think the implication with the angel issue is that on the issue of polygamy, Joseph Smith was not being an obedient follower and Emma was not being a faithful wife as she did not want anything to do with the issue.
In addition when one looks at the evidence, Joseph Smith did not really want to have anything to do with the practice.
It was his Abrahamic test.
Claims that Joseph Smith involved himself in polygamy because he was a womanizer, lusted after women, ect are all claims that really is not supported by the evidence.
They make for good gossip and character attacks but it really does speak to the facts.
So, how bout taking a crack at....
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'm trying to think of ANYWHERE ELSE in the Bible where an angel threatens to destroy an otherwise obedient follower. Smith was supposedly God's agent, and Emma was his faithful wife.
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