Announcement

Collapse

LDS - Mormonism Guidelines

Theists only.

Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.

Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin


Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

LDS Church: Mormon founder Joseph Smith wed 40 wives

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    It's amazing the ridiculous lengths Mormons will go to excuse Joseph Smith's antics. That alone should alert them that something is wrong with their religion.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      It's amazing the ridiculous lengths Mormons will go to excuse Joseph Smith's antics. That alone should alert them that something is wrong with their religion.
      Yet they can't see the similarities to Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. They also made things up as they went, and made sex part of the "in crowd".
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
        Cult members like Abraham and Jacob?
        Of course things were just a wee bit different several thousand years ago when Abraham and Jacob were alive than they are in modern times, wouldn't you agree?

        Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
        You do know that the Bible is a great resource one can go to defend the practice. You do know that the only reason people have a problem with the practice is they have a modern, westernized view that it is wrong. If one looks at notable Christians who in history who did not grow up with a modern, westernized view, polygamy is not that big of a deal. Justin Martyr and Augustine

        "Again, Jacob the son of Isaac is charged with having committed a great crime because he had four wives. But here there is no ground for a criminal accusation: for a plurality of wives was no crime when it was the custom; and it is a crime now, because it is no longer the custom. There are sins against nature, and sins against custom, and sins against the laws. In which, then, of these senses did Jacob sin in having a plurality of wives? As regards nature, he used the women not for sensual gratification, but for the procreation of children. For custom, this was the common practice at that time in those countries. And for the laws, no prohibition existed. The only reason of its being a crime now to do this, is because custom and the laws forbid it." (Augustine, Reply to Faustus 22:47, in The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Series 1, 4:288)
        You sorta shot yourself in the foot there cd. It does not at all appear that Augustine thought "polygamy is not that big of a deal" since he is clearly calling it wrong and refers to it as a crime. He excuses it because it took place long ago when it was the custom and clearly indicates that even in his time (before the "modern, westernized view") it was viewed as wrong and that "the laws forbid it."

        And in the case of Jacob he says it was done out of necessity "for the procreation of children." Where is the evidence that Smith had to take on multiple wives in order to increase the Mormon population -- especially since many of the women were already Mormons and married (they could increase the Mormon population by having children with their legitimate husbands). No, it looks like for Smith it was the other reason -- "for sensual gratification," which Augustine does not condone.

        Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
        Martin Luther takes a view that is found in Jacob 2 in the Book of Mormon.

        "Consequently it is my opinion that a Christian is not free to marry several wives unless God commands him [See Jacob 2:30] to go beyond the liberty which is conditioned by love."(Luther to Joseph Levin Metzsch, 9 December 1526, in Theodore G. Tappert, ed. and trans., Luther: Letters of Spiritual Counsel, vol. 18 of the Library of Christian Classics (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1955), p. 276)
        This was a failing of Luther's. He needed to support of the German princes for political reasons so he excused their polygamy.

        Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
        Even more modern day Christians who live in Africa have not been completely against it.

        "Baptist and Methodist missions baptize those who entered a polygamous marriage before coming into contact with the Gospel or, more specifically, before making a decision to accept Christ. They do not consider polygamy a sin but feel that it is not the ideal of God." (Robert Hoist, in International Review of Missions 56 (April 1967): 205)
        "Let it be publicly declared that a polygamous African church may still be classified as a Christian church, even while monogamy remains the Christian norm, and that no such church will be excluded from Christian councils and full Christian fellowship solely because of its polygamy." (H. W. Turner, "Monogamy: A Mark of the Church?" International Review of Missions 55 (July 1966): 321)

        They are not condoning people entering polygamous relationships after becoming Christian but rather accepting the reality that some did this prior to becoming Christian. I would disagree about it not being a sin but moreover it is not on par with someone declaring that he was commanded by God to take other people's wives as his own (even threatened with violence if he didn't!).

        Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
        Mistakes may have been made when the LDS Church instituted polygamy.
        Two of the most important were claiming that it was commanded by God and the later attempts to whitewash it rather than coming clean.

        Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
        That is to be expected when anything new is started.
        The claiming that it was established by God was the mistake. God is not going to institute something that is a mistake.

        Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
        I avoid finding too much fault simply because if I was in the position, I probably would not have done much better.
        You would have claimed that God was commanding you to sleep with other men's wives?

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
          My view is that only Jesus was perfect. Everyone else including all the important figures in the Bible made mistakes. Perhaps you think prophets are perfect, infallible men who never make mistakes. That is not my view of what a prophet is.
          Nobody is demanding that Smith be perfect. It is Smith's claim that despite his wishes, he was forced -- even threatened if he didn't -- to take on dozens of wives, including those that were already married that is the problem.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment

          Related Threads

          Collapse

          Topics Statistics Last Post
          Started by Cow Poke, 11-19-2022, 10:08 AM
          4 responses
          35 views
          2 likes
          Last Post rogue06
          by rogue06
           
          Working...
          X