7up's War on Motherhood

[seven7up]

Because you have no choice --- it's one of those dumb things your church came up with and you're stuck with it. ...Yuh..... you can keep saying that -- it's still a totally made up "doctrine". And goofy.

I don't think it is dumb or goofy at all. I think it is wonderful. Maybe you are just jealous.

-7up

[Sparko]

It has stopped being amusing. I'm beginning to think he's not as bright as LDSTrue.

well he sure as heck isn't as honest, that's for sure.

[Cow Poke]

Nothing if that is what a woman wants. I was speaking about the options that mormon leaders have given women (as referenced by my quotes) that say a woman should only be a housewife and mother. That is their proscription for their function. They frown on women working or not being married and having children.

Come on 7up. You obviously know what I was saying and you just want to draw a line in the sand to pick a fight over. It is amusing, but dishonest.

It has stopped being amusing. I'm beginning to think he's not as bright as LDSTrue.

[Sparko]

What is wrong with "only" being a housewife Sparko?

Nothing if that is what a woman wants. I was speaking about the options that mormon leaders have given women (as referenced by my quotes) that say a woman should only be a housewife and mother. That is their proscription for their function. They frown on women working or not being married and having children.

Come on 7up. You obviously know what I was saying and you just want to draw a line in the sand to pick a fight over. It is amusing, but dishonest.

[Cow Poke]

I am waiting to see if any of you are willing to read and address the Biblical teachings about the role of women, even as presented by solidly gounded evangelicals like John M.

That has NOTHING to do with the totally made up "doctrine" of a "Heavenly Mother" about which you know NOTHING. The idea that you have a female in Heaven relegated to the role of endlessly squirting out spirit babies is beyond goofy.

[Cow Poke]

I am proud to defend it.

Because you have no choice --- it's one of those dumb things your church came up with and you're stuck with it.

I am proud of my mother. I am proud of my wife.

I'm sure this is true.

I am proud of having a Mother in Heaven.

-7up

Yuh..... you can keep saying that -- it's still a totally made up "doctrine". And goofy.

[seven7up]

7up wrote: What is wrong with taking the kids to soccer? What is wrong with cleaning the house?

What is wrong with YOU doing these things?

Nothing at all. Often I'm the picking the kids up from soccer. I also take care of responsibilities/chores around the house. Are you accusing the LDS of discouraging men from doing those kinds of things, like helping around the house?

7up: What is wrong with bearing children?

I hope you'd agree that's a pretty gender specific function.

Sure it is. By God's design.

7up: What is wrong with making dinner?

What's wrong with YOU making dinner? I do it a lot!

Nothing wrong with me making dinner. I cook 1-2 times per week, but usually on weekends because I often don't get home from work until 6-6:30, which is a little late to get started. I cook especially when I have time off from work.

The "LDS idea of a Mother in Heaven" is just one more total fabrication that got inserted into your mess of theology, and now you're stuck defending it, ...

I am proud to defend it. I am proud of my mother. I am proud of my wife. I am proud of having a Mother in Heaven.

-7up

[seven7up]

waits to see if 7Up is man enough to admit he was wrong about Sparko

I am waiting to see if any of you are willing to read and address the Biblical teachings about the role of women, even as presented by solidly gounded evangelicals like John M.

I provided the link. Here it is again. In part 2 he goes into the detail of the Biblical text here: http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons...r-Women-Part-2

Any takers?

-7up

[seven7up]

I was not mocking motherhood or housewives but the fact that mormons expect their women to only be those things ...

What is wrong with "only" being a housewife Sparko?

Now this is at least the third time I have given you this explanation and you continue to ignore it and repeat yourself and accuse me of "mocking motherhood"

At this point I have no problem calling you a dishonest liar. So much for how honest and upstanding mormons are supposed to be.

I recognized your "explanation" Sparko. You are criticizing/mocking the LDS view that fathers have the primary responsibility to work and provide for the family, and you are criticizing/mocking the LDS view that mothers primary responsibility is to raise children and be "homemakers".

That isn't what I am getting at, so it is you who is being dishonest. I am getting at WHY you think that this is a view that should be mocked or criticized, especially when it is a similar view found in the rest of Christianity, not just Mormonism.

In fact, the point that I made very early on in this discussion is that this is the same kind of mockery that comes from non-Christians, and is directed towards Christians. So, why have you joined the anti-Biblical world view? Just because at that moment in your discussion with me, you found it to be a convenient way in order to attack Mormonism?

-7up

[Cow Poke]

What is wrong with taking the kids to soccer?

What is wrong with cleaning the house?

What is wrong with YOU doing these things?

What is wrong with bearing children?

I hope you'd agree that's a pretty gender specific function.

What is wrong with making dinner?

What's wrong with YOU making dinner? I do it a lot!

The statement given in order to mock the LDS idea of a Mother in Heaven treated these activities listed above with derision.

The "LDS idea of a Mother in Heaven" is just one more total fabrication that got inserted into your mess of theology, and now you're stuck defending it, so you have no choice but to go into goofus mode.

[Cow Poke]

waits to see if 7Up is man enough to admit he was wrong about Sparko

Ain't gonna happen --- he's not wired that way, which is why he got sucked into the Mormon Scam.

[Sparko]

7-up's strategy is clear. Basically he knows he cannot answer our objections to mormonism, so he plays the victim, accusing everyone of being against him. This way he changes the topic from the actual point to getting everyone to defend their "victimizing" of him or the LDS.


It is pure deflection and very passive aggressive. I see it all of the time with liberals. You make a statement like "people should work for a living instead of living on welfare" and rather than discussing the piont, they will come back with "Why do you you hate poor people so much?" and stuff like that.

[RumTumTugger]

I was not mocking motherhood or housewives but the fact that mormons expect their women to only be those things (I even gave a quote from one of your apostles) and perhaps that is why "mother God" is pretty much ignored in mormon theology.


The Honored Place of Woman
Ezra Taft Benson

Since the beginning, a woman’s first and most important role has been ushering into mortality spirit sons and daughters of our Father in Heaven.
...
In the beginning, Adam was instructed to earn the bread by the sweat of his brow—not Eve. Contrary to conventional wisdom, a mother’s place is in the home!
...
Beguiling voices in the world cry out for “alternative life-styles” for women. They maintain that some women are better suited for careers than for marriage and motherhood.

These individuals spread their discontent by the propaganda that there are more exciting and self-fulfilling roles for women than homemaking. Some even have been bold to suggest that the Church move away from the “Mormon woman stereotype” of homemaking and rearing children. They also say it is wise to limit your family so you can have more time for personal goals and self-fulfillment.
...
It is a misguided idea that a woman should leave the home, where there is a husband and children, to prepare educationally and financially for an unforeseen eventuality. Too often, I fear, even women in the Church use the world as their standard for success and basis for self-worth.
---
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...woman?lang=eng

Selected Teachings
President Spencer W. Kimball

“The husband is expected to support his family and only in an emergency should a wife secure outside employment. Her place is in the home, to build the home into a heaven of delight.

“Numerous divorces can be traced directly to the day when the wife left the home and went out into the world into employment. Two incomes raise the standard of living beyond its norm. Two spouses working prevent the complete and proper home life, break into the family prayers, create an independence which is not cooperative, causes distortion, limits the family and frustrates the children already born.

==============

Now this is at least the third time I have given you this explanation and you continue to ignore it and repeat yourself and accuse me of "mocking motherhood"

At this point I have no problem calling you a dishonest liar. So much for how honest and upstanding mormons are supposed to be.

waits to see if 7Up is man enough to admit he was wrong about Sparko

[Sparko]

In reference to mothers (and by extension Heavenly Mother), Sparko said:



I think we are all familiar with the mockery being used here, phrases like "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen" are being invoked.

-7up

I was not mocking motherhood or housewives but the fact that mormons expect their women to only be those things (I even gave a quote from one of your apostles) and perhaps that is why "mother God" is pretty much ignored in mormon theology.


The Honored Place of Woman
Ezra Taft Benson

Since the beginning, a woman’s first and most important role has been ushering into mortality spirit sons and daughters of our Father in Heaven.
...
In the beginning, Adam was instructed to earn the bread by the sweat of his brow—not Eve. Contrary to conventional wisdom, a mother’s place is in the home!
...
Beguiling voices in the world cry out for “alternative life-styles” for women. They maintain that some women are better suited for careers than for marriage and motherhood.

These individuals spread their discontent by the propaganda that there are more exciting and self-fulfilling roles for women than homemaking. Some even have been bold to suggest that the Church move away from the “Mormon woman stereotype” of homemaking and rearing children. They also say it is wise to limit your family so you can have more time for personal goals and self-fulfillment.
...
It is a misguided idea that a woman should leave the home, where there is a husband and children, to prepare educationally and financially for an unforeseen eventuality. Too often, I fear, even women in the Church use the world as their standard for success and basis for self-worth.
---
https://www.lds.org/general-conferen...woman?lang=eng

Selected Teachings
President Spencer W. Kimball

“The husband is expected to support his family and only in an emergency should a wife secure outside employment. Her place is in the home, to build the home into a heaven of delight.

“Numerous divorces can be traced directly to the day when the wife left the home and went out into the world into employment. Two incomes raise the standard of living beyond its norm. Two spouses working prevent the complete and proper home life, break into the family prayers, create an independence which is not cooperative, causes distortion, limits the family and frustrates the children already born.

==============

Now this is at least the third time I have given you this explanation and you continue to ignore it and repeat yourself and accuse me of "mocking motherhood"

At this point I have no problem calling you a dishonest liar. So much for how honest and upstanding mormons are supposed to be.

[Cow Poke]

So, are you guys disagreeing with how Mormons view the role of men and women, or are you disagreeing with the Biblical and Christian view of those roles?

-7up

I'm calling you out on your false accusation that Sparko was denigrating motherhood. Try to pay attention. Please prove your claim.