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Do Mormons Still Believe Smith will be "checking passports" in Heaven?

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  • Do Mormons Still Believe Smith will be "checking passports" in Heaven?

    Or is it time to throw brother Young under the bus once more?

    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Yeah, but the Catholic Church was the only TRUE Church, until the Mormon Church came along, and now it's even TRUER! Even the Pope will have to have Smith's permission to enter Heaven.

    "Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."
    From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me.

    --Brigham Young
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  • #2
    Might as well toss Smith under the same bus...


    Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

    History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-409

    Comment


    • #3
      Robert Millett called this proclamation by BY a "bold statement"

      https://www.lds.org/ensign/1994/06/j...phets?lang=eng

      Millett also declared in the same article in Ensign about Joseph Smith:

      I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ. …

      And from a Mormon's testimony page:

      http://ua.mormon.org/me/2CXN/Bill

      As Latter-day Saints, we are taught that "no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith."


      So, to answer your question, CP... yes they still teach it.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        For starters, as usual, you take out the context so you miss what Brigham Young meant. He explained it right after referring to the "redemption" provided by Christ,

        "It is his [Joseph's] mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption" (Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, vol.7, p.289).

        You all simply don't know the scriptures well enough to understand that what is being taught by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith is the same that was taught in the Bible.

        Jesus said:

        "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

        For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

        But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:45-47)


        Therefore, for the Children of Israel, believing in the writings of Moses was their "passport" for understanding who and what God is, and the path to salvation through Jesus Christ.

        Another archetype is Noah, who offered "salvation" to those who were on the ark, because they accepted the word of God that came through him.

        Certainly this is not a difficult concept.

        -7up
        Last edited by seven7up; 10-07-2014, 05:04 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
          For starters, as usual, you take out the context so you miss what Brigham Young meant. He explained it right after referring to the "redemption" provided by Christ,

          "It is his [Joseph's] mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption" (Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, vol.7, p.289).

          You all simply don't know the scriptures well enough to understand that what is being taught by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith is the same that was taught in the Bible.

          Jesus said:

          "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

          For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

          But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:45-47)


          Therefore, for the Children of Israel, believing in the writings of Moses was their "passport" for understanding who and what God is, and the path to salvation through Jesus Christ.

          Another archetype is Noah, who offered "salvation" to those who were on the ark, because they accepted the word of God that came through him.

          Certainly this is not a difficult concept.

          -7up
          Dance, soda boy, dance...
          That's what
          - She

          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
          Stephen R. Donaldson

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
            For starters, as usual, you take out the context so you miss what Brigham Young meant.
            For finishers, as usual, you kabuki dance all around the issue, and don't have any real answers.
            "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

            Comment


            • #7
              Now that I have a few minutes...

              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
              For starters, as usual, you take out the context so you miss what Brigham Young meant. He explained it right after referring to the "redemption" provided by Christ,

              "It is his [Joseph's] mission to see that all the children of men in this last dispensation are saved, that can be, through the redemption" (Brigham Young - Journal of Discourses, vol.7, p.289).
              Bologna. The context is clear.

              Source: http://jod.mrm.org/7/282

              From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven.

              © Copyright Original Source



              What YOU cited was not before the quote CP cited. Your quote was 2 paragraphs later.

              You all simply don't know the scriptures well enough to understand that what is being taught by Brigham Young and Joseph Smith is the same that was taught in the Bible.
              Not even close! You have no clue about scripture, that much is obvious.

              Jesus said:

              "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

              For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

              But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:45-47)
              Jesus immediately says that it is Moses' WRITINGS (aka the Torah) that they don't believe, so this isn't "Moses will get them into heaven with a hall pass". Yet another completely misapplied verse

              Therefore, for the Children of Israel, believing in the writings of Moses was their "passport" for understanding who and what God is, and the path to salvation through Jesus Christ.
              The WRITINGS of Moses, not Moses Himself. Nowhere does Jesus claim that Moses had to give them a ticket to ride the train into heaven.

              Another archetype is Noah, who offered "salvation" to those who were on the ark, because they accepted the word of God that came through him.
              Um... no. He offered safety from the flood, not salvation. It's a type. BY was talking about a literal passport, not simply believing Joseph Smith's words.

              Certainly this is not a difficult concept.
              Which one? That you will twist and mangle scripture to try to save the liar Joseph Smith's bacon from his and his successor's blatant lies? That's not difficult to see at all.
              That's what
              - She

              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
              Stephen R. Donaldson

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                BY was talking about a literal passport, not simply believing Joseph Smith's words.
                One slight quibble. Do you have any evidence BY was talking about a literal passport? From what's presented here I don't see a necessarily literal meaning in those words. Literal approval, yes; literal piece of paper, no.
                Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                sigpic
                I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                  One slight quibble. Do you have any evidence BY was talking about a literal passport? From what's presented here I don't see a necessarily literal meaning in those words. Literal approval, yes; literal piece of paper, no.
                  That's what I meant. That BY meant that we would literally have to visit Joseph Smith in his "sphere" before passing along to God and Christ.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                    Now that I have a few minutes...

                    Bologna. The context is clear.
                    Yes. The context.

                    Brigham Young and Joseph Smith are comparing themselves to other prophets who revealed the truth about Jesus Christ to the world. That is why I quoted Jesus who said,

                    Jesus said:

                    "Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
                    For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
                    But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? (John 5:45-47)"


                    In addition, we find that in New Testament, the Apostles given the promise that they will judge the twelve tribes of Israel (Matt 19:28).

                    Obviously, in the scriptural context, these apostles are not autonomous. They are not going to make judgments that are contrary to the will of God. Like Joseph Smith, they are merely tools or instruments in the hands of God.

                    As previously mentioned by many LDS apologists, this is similar to the Christian image of Peter at the "pearly gates," who opens and closes the gate to admit people in or not, according to the righteous judgments of God.

                    So, this accusation against Mormonism and what Brigham Young said is a trumped up charge which is, for starters, hypocritical and/or contrary to what the Bible says and I have provided those verses for you.

                    Those statements are indicating that God speaks and acts through prophets, apostles, and those who are chosen in the same way that Aaron was chosen in the account given by Moses.

                    And...

                    "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets." (Amos 3:7)


                    -7up

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      7up: Another archetype is Noah, who offered "salvation" to those who were on the ark, because they accepted the word of God that came through him. (Bold added)

                      BILL: Um... no. He offered safety from the flood, not salvation. It's a type.

                      Yes Bill. A "type". That's why I used the word "archetype". I will try to use smaller words for you next time.


                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      One slight quibble. Do you have any evidence BY was talking about a literal passport? From what's presented here I don't see a necessarily literal meaning in those words.
                      Thank you for pointing that out Bad Pig. When speaking to the less informed, he will purposefully ignore the poetic license invoked by these kinds of phrases. I'm sure Bill would love to paint the imagery of a blue passport with stamps and a photograph, and present it to a crowd who knows nothing about Mormonism. Bill bears false witness with his words.

                      That reminds me to ask. Can I place Bill on ignore? As you can see, it is pointless to discuss anything with him.

                      Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                      Literal approval, yes; literal piece of paper, no.
                      Now my quibble with what you said Bad Pig. As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ. The same understanding goes for Joseph Smith in the LDS view.

                      Joseph Smith is not going to deny entrance to individuals who Christ approves of. And THAT is the deception that anti-Mormons are trying to sell here, and it is a misrepresentation ... and everyone here on this forum knows it. Joseph was and is and will be only acting according to the will of God. So, let's stop pretending, or feigning offense by twisting what people actually meant.

                      -7up
                      Last edited by seven7up; 10-16-2014, 04:35 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                        That reminds me to ask. Can I place Bill on ignore?
                        You're pretty much ignoring everything he says anyway.

                        As you can see, it is pointless to discuss anything with him.
                        How would you know?

                        As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ.
                        Well, in the first place, the Apostles were called by Christ, and Smith was not.

                        The same understanding goes for Joseph Smith in the LDS view.
                        In the LDS view --- you mean, the CURRENT one, the original one, the Brigham Young one... which one?

                        Joseph Smith is not going to deny entrance to individuals who Christ approves of.
                        On THAT we agree, because he doesn't have the authority, and MAY not even BE there.

                        And THAT is the deception that anti-Mormons are trying to sell here, and it is a misrepresentation ... and everyone here on this forum knows it.
                        Then you are calling us all liars without substantiation, and that is a clear violation of TWeb decorum.

                        Joseph was and is and will be only acting according to the will of God.
                        Wrong, he was a fraud and a liar, and has NO positive role in the act of Salvation or the eternal destination of anybody.

                        So, let's stop pretending, or feigning offense by twisting what people actually meant.
                        Yes, PLEASE do!

                        (But, no, you cannot put moderators on ignore -- just continue ignoring what they say and posting your same screed over and over.)
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by seven7up View Post

                          As previously mentioned by many LDS apologists, this is similar to the Christian image of Peter at the "pearly gates," who opens and closes the gate to admit people in or not, according to the righteous judgments of God.
                          Just going to address this for a second...

                          This misunderstanding of Peter goes back to an early medieval interpretation that identified Peter with a figure in Germanic mythology who was the porter of heaven. The Church didn't originate this, but your church originated the nonsense of Joseph Smith at the highest level.
                          That's what
                          - She

                          Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                          - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                          I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                          Stephen R. Donaldson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                            Now my quibble with what you said Bad Pig. As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ. The same understanding goes for Joseph Smith in the LDS view.

                            Joseph Smith is not going to deny entrance to individuals who Christ approves of. And THAT is the deception that anti-Mormons are trying to sell here, and it is a misrepresentation ... and everyone here on this forum knows it. Joseph was and is and will be only acting according to the will of God. So, let's stop pretending, or feigning offense by twisting what people actually meant.

                            -7up
                            In other words, you have no quibble with what I said; you're merely attempting to provide justification.

                            have no assurance that someone who boasted in being better than Christ will defer to Him. And the LDS position assumes that Joseph Smith is an apostle, which I do not grant.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                              7up: Another archetype is Noah, who offered "salvation" to those who were on the ark, because they accepted the word of God that came through him. (Bold added)

                              BILL: Um... no. He offered safety from the flood, not salvation. It's a type.

                              Yes Bill. A "type". That's why I used the word "archetype".
                              Then you tacitly admit that it has nothing to do with BY's comment . BY was not talking about Joseph Smith being a type of Christ, he was saying quite specifically that JS was our ticket to pass to Christ, and that we would all be required to see JS before we saw Jesus.

                              I will try to use smaller words for you next time.
                              You're an ass.



                              Thank you for pointing that out Bad Pig. When speaking to the less informed, he will purposefully ignore the poetic license invoked by these kinds of phrases. I'm sure Bill would love to paint the imagery of a blue passport with stamps and a photograph, and present it to a crowd who knows nothing about Mormonism. Bill bears false witness with his words.
                              Hey dumbass, did you even bother to see my reply to OB1? I made it perfectly clear that I was not referring to a literal blue passport complete with photo and US insignia... but hey, don't let reality get in the way of your stupidity.

                              That reminds me to ask. Can I place Bill on ignore?
                              Coward.

                              As you can see, it is pointless to discuss anything with him.
                              Because I expose all of your moronic stupidity, and you can't stand light being shined on your darkness.



                              Now my quibble with what you said Bad Pig. As per the scripture I quoted in my previous post, it is understood that the apostles of the New Testament will judge the twelve tribes of Israel , but we understand that this these judgements will ONLY be enacted in harmony with the will of Jesus Christ.
                              And Israel will be judged based on what faith they displayed. And the 12 were specifically to judge only Israel. There is no indication that once judged, they get to pass on to see Jesus.

                              The same understanding goes for Joseph Smith in the LDS view.


                              Joseph Smith is not going to deny entrance to individuals who Christ approves of.
                              He is not even in the equation. We will not have ANY stops prior to the judgment seat of Christ.

                              And THAT is the deception that anti-Mormons are trying to sell here, and it is a misrepresentation ... and everyone here on this forum knows it. Joseph was and is and will be only acting according to the will of God. So, let's stop pretending, or feigning offense by twisting what people actually meant.
                              Only if you do first. I haven't misrepresented anything BY said, and I linked directly to the context for all to see.
                              That's what
                              - She

                              Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                              - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                              I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                              Stephen R. Donaldson

                              Comment

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