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The Kinderhook Problem

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  • The Kinderhook Problem

    In April of 1843, a set of brass plates was found in an Indian mound near Kinderhook, Illinois. Smith declared them authentic ancient records.

    kinderhook.gif

    Source: History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 372

    "I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound. They found a skeleton about six feet from the surface of the earth, which must have stood nine feet high. The plates were found on the breast of the skeleton and were covered on both sides with ancient characters.

    I have translated a portion of them and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."

    © Copyright Original Source



    Long story short, one of the actual plates, "#5", was subsequently located and tested by Mormon scholar Stanley P. Kimball. The Chicago Historical Society, where the plate was maintained, gave permission for "recommended destructive tests", because previous non-destructive tests were not accepted by those who believed they were real.

    For nearly 140 years, the Mormon Church had defended Smith's partial translation of the plates, but later tried to distance themselves from this. No wonder, because the Mormon professor stated....

    Source: Ensign, August 1981

    "A recent electronic and chemical analysis of a metal plate…brought in 1843 to the prophet Joseph Smith…appears to solve a previously unanswered question in Church history, helping to further evidence that the plate is what its producers later said it was - a nineteenth-century attempt to lure Joseph Smith into making a translation of ancient-looking characters that had been etched into the plates…As a result of these tests, we concluded that the plate…is not of ancient origin… we concluded that the plate was made from a true brass alloy (copper and zinc) typical of the mid-nineteenth century; whereas the 'brass' of ancient times was actually bronze, an alloy of copper and tin."

    © Copyright Original Source



    The "prophet" Joseph Smith was kinderhooked.

    While Mormon "apologists" claim Smith was NOT fooled, the Nauvoo Neighbor, a Mormon newspaper, in June reported that Smith was busy translating them, and that the new work would be a sequel to the Mook of Mormon. It claimed that "the contents of the Plates, together with a fac-simile of the same, will be published in the Times and Seasons, as soon as the translation is completed."
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

  • #2
    What's the "Mook of Mormon"?

    Comment


    • #3
      Ah but you see CP... God can translate even fake plates into something real.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
        What's the "Mook of Mormon"?
        Interesting... according to Merriam Webster:
        slang
        : a foolish, insignificant, or contemptible person
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Interesting... according to Merriam Webster:
          slang
          : a foolish, insignificant, or contemptible person
          It always makes me think of these guys.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            For nearly 140 years, the Mormon Church had defended Smith's partial translation of the plates, but later tried to distance themselves from this.
            This is why he couldn't finish it...

            That's what
            - She

            Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
            - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

            I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
            Stephen R. Donaldson

            Comment


            • #7
              A couple of points in response to Cow Poke

              1. I recognize that there is some view out there that Joseph Smith made a translation of these plates. The comment in the History of the Church that says "I have translated a portion" does seem to suggest that but the original text which that statement came from which is William Clayton journal says "President J. has translated a portion." Did Mr Clayton actually see a translation or was he told by hearsay? I don't know the answer to that question but if Joseph Smith translated it, where is it? Is there even evidence that shows witnesses actually seeing a translation document? If all that exist is a rumor that Joseph Smith translated it that is pretty weak. It is possible that initially Joseph Smith thought it was legit and said he would translate but then when he tried to translate it, he was not able to since it was a fake. I think more is needed than just a rumor of a translation without an actual document.

              2. The men who brought the plates to Nauvoo never say that Joseph translated the plates while they were in Nauvoo. Mr. Fugates in 1878 said Joseph "would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian Society at Philadelphia, France, and England." The plates were sent to the Antiquarian Society in November of 1843 and Mr. Fugate says Joseph Smith began his translation, but this is false. During this period, the Kinderhook plates where in the hands of R. Wiley for almost the whole year of 1843 and a professor McDowell who kept them until 1855. When did Joseph Smith translate them? Perhaps this is a reason we have no translation. It never happened.

              3. It took Wilbur Fugate 35 years to come around and claim Joseph Smith was a fraud in 1878. If he had clear and convincing evidence that Joseph Smith was a fraud in 1843, why would he wait about 35 years to get around to exposing Joseph? My view is he wanted to wait until everyone associated with the event where dead to promote a lie. Dead people have a hard time refuting lies made against them.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
                A couple of points in response to Cow Poke

                1. I recognize that there is some view out there that Joseph Smith made a translation of these plates. The comment in the History of the Church that says "I have translated a portion" does seem to suggest that but the original text which that statement came from which is William Clayton journal says "President J. has translated a portion."
                Yeah, how bout that?

                Did Mr Clayton actually see a translation or was he told by hearsay? I don't know the answer to that question but if Joseph Smith translated it, where is it?
                Smith had a habit of.. um... making things appear they were what they were not, and lying about what was.

                Is there even evidence that shows witnesses actually seeing a translation document? If all that exist is a rumor that Joseph Smith translated it that is pretty weak.
                So, you're saying that Smith surrounded himself with liars? I tend to agree, though probably for different purposes.

                It is possible that initially Joseph Smith thought it was legit and said he would translate but then when he tried to translate it, he was not able to since it was a fake. I think more is needed than just a rumor of a translation without an actual document.
                It's more likely that he thought he could get away with it, because he was so used to fooling people.

                2. The men who brought the plates to Nauvoo never say that Joseph translated the plates while they were in Nauvoo. Mr. Fugates in 1878 said Joseph "would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian Society at Philadelphia, France, and England." The plates were sent to the Antiquarian Society in November of 1843 and Mr. Fugate says Joseph Smith began his translation, but this is false. During this period, the Kinderhook plates where in the hands of R. Wiley for almost the whole year of 1843 and a professor McDowell who kept them until 1855. When did Joseph Smith translate them? Perhaps this is a reason we have no translation. It never happened.
                So, again, Smith's buddies were liars, just like him?

                3. It took Wilbur Fugate 35 years to come around and claim Joseph Smith was a fraud in 1878.
                Heck, I knew it as soon as I read that goofy false prophecy against his otherwise obedient and loving wife!

                If he had clear and convincing evidence that Joseph Smith was a fraud in 1843, why would he wait about 35 years to get around to exposing Joseph? My view is he wanted to wait until everyone associated with the event where dead to promote a lie. Dead people have a hard time refuting lies made against them.
                Many people profited from the trickery and deceit of Smith, and when it no longer suited their purposes, they quit playing the game.
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by carbon dioxide View Post
                  A couple of points in response to Cow Poke

                  1. I recognize that there is some view out there that Joseph Smith made a translation of these plates.
                  "Some view"?? William Clayton was Joseph Smith's private secretary. The section of DHC that this comes from, Vol 5, Sec 20 Pg 372, has Clayton writing Smith's own words which said "I insert fac-similes of the six brass plates found near Kinderhook, in Pike county, Illinois, on April 23, by Mr. Robert Wiley and others, while excavating a large mound."

                  The comment in the History of the Church that says "I have translated a portion" does seem to suggest that but the original text which that statement came from which is William Clayton journal says "President J. has translated a portion." Did Mr Clayton actually see a translation or was he told by hearsay?
                  Since he was Smith's personal assistant, and he wrote down the daily events that happened in his presence to Joseph, then it stands to reason that this is exactly what Smith stated. In order for him to come up with the nonsense avbout the "loins of Ham", that would mean that he wanted the leadership to believe that he had in fact begun translating a portion. Although, we all know he was just running his trap and trying desperately to keep the duped under his thumb.

                  I don't know the answer to that question but if Joseph Smith translated it, where is it?
                  He didn't. He claimed he could, and even made up part of the story about the "loins of Ham", but there was never a translation, despite the Mormon leadership's expectations that one was forthcoming.

                  January 15, 1844, Times and Seasons:
                  "Why does the circumstance of the plates recently found in a mound in Pike county, Ill., by Mr. Wiley, together with ethnology and a thousand other things, go to prove the Book of Mormon true? — Ans. Because it is true!" (Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, page 406)


                  Is there even evidence that shows witnesses actually seeing a translation document?
                  That begs the question of whether or not he actually attempted another ruse. The real question is why did he make the wild claim about the "loins of Ham" if he never even tried to "translate" them?

                  If all that exist is a rumor that Joseph Smith translated it that is pretty weak.
                  Records of his personal secretary are hardly "rumors". Men have been convicted of crimes by that little evidence.

                  It is possible that initially Joseph Smith thought it was legit and said he would translate but then when he tried to translate it, he was not able to since it was a fake. I think more is needed than just a rumor of a translation without an actual document.
                  And I think he was a fraud, but never was allowed the opportunity to complete the fraud for a few reasons. But the fact remains that he claimed some very specific things about their content, which you are completely ignoring. Why is that?

                  2. The men who brought the plates to Nauvoo never say that Joseph translated the plates while they were in Nauvoo.
                  They were on display at Joseph's house, not in their possession. Parley Pratt and Willard Richards both agree that Joseph "sent for his
                  “Hebrew Bible and Lexicon"

                  Mr. Fugates in 1878 said Joseph "would not agree to translate them until they were sent to the Antiquarian Society at Philadelphia, France, and England." The plates were sent to the Antiquarian Society in November of 1843 and Mr. Fugate says Joseph Smith began his translation, but this is false.
                  Actually, it was his daughter, Mattie Fugate, who wrote it.

                  During this period, the Kinderhook plates where in the hands of R. Wiley for almost the whole year of 1843
                  The journal entry in question is from May 1, 1843, where Joseph had entertained visitors for a short while to see the plates on display at his house in Nauvoo. It is corroborated by Parley Pratt, Willard Richards, and an unnamed "gentile" who wrote as an eye witness to the Kinderhook plates in the New York Herald later that month.

                  and a professor McDowell who kept them until 1855.
                  Whose heirs, upon his death, turned them over to the Chicago Medical College Museum where they remained until being lost in the Civil War.

                  When did Joseph Smith translate them?
                  He didn't, (just like the Book of Mormon) but he claimed to know their contents, and his personal scribe wrote from Joseph's house, that Joseph had stated that he translated "a portion". Mormon researcher Don Bradley wrote an article trying to reconcile the "translated a portion" bit from this entry which treats it as authentic. It's an interesting apologetic read that attempts to draw a parallel to the already published BOA's source papyrus (Book of Breathing) and the “Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language (GAEL),” character for the Egyptian glyph "ho e oop hah"

                  Perhaps this is a reason we have no translation. It never happened.
                  We have 4 eye witnesses that say otherwise.

                  3. It took Wilbur Fugate 35 years to come around and claim Joseph Smith was a fraud in 1878. If he had clear and convincing evidence that Joseph Smith was a fraud in 1843, why would he wait about 35 years to get around to exposing Joseph? My view is he wanted to wait until everyone associated with the event where dead to promote a lie. Dead people have a hard time refuting lies made against them.
                  Probably because they didn't really care about exposing Smith as a fraud. It was a joke to them. Fugate, through his daughter, only told Brigham Young's estranged step-son, James T. Cobb, via the letter you cited because Young's step-son asked them about it in the letter, and she politely replied once the letter got to her and her sick father.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    That was actually quite interesting, BTC!

                    Not that this is unusual for you, but particularly interesting!
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      That was actually quite interesting, BTC!

                      Not that this is unusual for you, but particularly interesting!
                      Thanks CP. I find it interesting on just how many times modern Mormon apologists use the "rumor" card when something uncomfortable comes up. These guys took pride in being faithful to Smith and the leadership, and in being faithful to recording what he said.
                      That's what
                      - She

                      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                      Stephen R. Donaldson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                        Thanks CP. I find it interesting on just how many times modern Mormon apologists use the "rumor" card when something uncomfortable comes up. These guys took pride in being faithful to Smith and the leadership, and in being faithful to recording what he said.
                        I think the mormons must own a bus factory. They always have one handy to toss their prophets under when the need arises.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                          Thanks CP. I find it interesting on just how many times modern Mormon apologists use the "rumor" card when something uncomfortable comes up.
                          Funny you should mention that... when we visit a new city as a point of tourism, we often like to take the bus tour, and sometimes the "graveyard" bus tour at night. The driver won't lie, but he'll often say "THEY SAY....." in order to get away with telling a whopper, like "they say that Molly still roams the hallways and can be heard in the middle of the night screaming out in terror". I often think of that "THEY SAY...." when the Mormons are doing their apologystics.

                          These guys took pride in being faithful to Smith and the leadership, and in being faithful to recording what he said.
                          EGGzackly.... and under the bus they go!
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment

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