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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Ah, so now the TOUGH GUY routine. Stand in line behind Mickiel and --- who was that other really crazy guy (Tee Jay?) who threatened to come to Texas and whoop my !#$!^!^?


    So, you glory in mocking people's beliefs in order to make them angry at you.

    Congratulations.

    -7up

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
      No popcorn, you guys.

      See what I mean about starting a thread?
      sigpic1 Cor 15:34 εκνηψατε δικαιως και μη αμαρτανετε αγνωσιαν γαρ θεου τινες εχουσιν προς εντροπην υμιν λεγω

      Comment


      • #18
        7up: That is why I suspect you are the kind of person who pulls off the hats of Orthodox Jews, then you pull their hair and tell them how stupid they look with all of their "nonsense". You are a despicable human being, and you don't even realize it. So, KD. Do you think that it would be "despicable" for him to make fun of Orthodox Jews for the way they dress, or other things about what they believe?

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        Yes, that would be despicable behavior. There's a big difference between saying someone's behavior is despicable and saying he himself is despicable.
        That behavior is all that he does here. There is no respectable or intelligent debate coming from this individual. His behavior is a reflection of who he is on the inside.

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        There are different ways of doing that. Nathan did that for David by telling him a story about a rich man who took a poor man's pet lamb to be dinner for his guest. You can show someone what their behavior is like without imitating it yourself.
        I did that for a very, very long time. I have a long fuse, but they made it through it.

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        Besides, in the quotes I posted after the "despicable" quote, you were just lashing out at CP. Here, for instance:

        CP: Yeah, I just got back from Israel, where I actually traveled WITH Orthodox Jews and we actually got along just great!

        7up: You must have faked it. You just paid them lip service, just like the god you pretend to serve.

        How is accusing CP of being a blatant social and spiritual hypocrite "putting a mirror up to his face"?
        He disagrees with Orthodox Jews, who don't even consider Jesus to be the Messiah, yet I assume he treats them with respect despite their disagreements. I was providing bright imagery of how he was treating my religion, and how it would look if he did the same against Orthodox Jews.

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        I included more of your quote because it gives the context for what CP said. If the reason for there not being much teaching on Heavenly Mother is because such teaching is "very sacred" and a "pearl," what does it say about Heavenly Father that there is so much teaching about him?
        The characteristics about God the Father, his nature and etc. are understood by LDS to also be true about Heavenly Mother. That is not the kind of thing we are talking about here. Yet, these good Christians here reduce it to being "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen." I think it was quite appropriate to point out the "pearls before swine" quote from Jesus, because representation of motherhood shows no respect for something as important as a mother.

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        BTW, why are we talking about CP's posts, when the original topic was your posts?
        Because it is important to understand that I endured months of abuse from the likes of these, and you yourself witnessed it. That is the CONTEXT for my posts.

        Again, you saw their personal attacks and mocking all along when you said:

        KD: There is a certain amount of "egging on" that goes on here, from Sparko and CP mocking LDS beliefs and attempts to defend them to BTC outright insulting 7up and calling him "stupid" and "nitwit." And 7up has started responding with his own insults...

        That is right. After MONTHS of this, I started responding with a similar tone to theirs. You and I both know that they were outright insulting me throughout. My tone slowly began to match theirs, but when they referred to motherhood and Heavenly Mother in the way that they were. That was the last straw. Was it right for me to do it, no. But at least you can try to see where I am coming from.

        Please explain why CP's calling your beliefs "nonsense" is equivalent to an atheist urinating on a picture of Christ, but it's totally okay for you to say things like:

        None of my original posts were like that. Note that the previous posts say to me,

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post


        Really? a "community?" - Then you are calling YHWH a liar, ...

        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ---

        Again: ... if he were speaking of those other meanings then he would have been outright LYING by saying there were no Gods formed before him, nor will there be any formed after him. That he alone is God.

        You get that right?...

        Bull crap. That is exactly what you do. And have done throughout your post!
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        You're really being dense, Seven.

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        Sounds to me like you're saying that traditional Trinitarianism is silly, made-up nonsense. And IMO, you have every right to say that if you're simply stating what you believe and not intentionally trying to offend. But you don't have the right to say that and then turn around and accuse others of denigrating religious beliefs and being "despicable human beings" for doing the exact same thing you do.
        As you can see, I allowed them to drag me down to their level. Not the other way around. The evidence is on every thread here on this forum.

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        Maybe not, but you can help how you react to it. "He made me mad" isn't an excuse for any kind of behavior.
        Agreed.

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        You made assumptions of how he would treat Jews in person, ...
        That was tongue in cheek with exaggeration. You see, it was like, "IF you treat Mormon beliefs and practices this way, THEN you would treat Jews in this way."

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        Are you saying that CP deserves to be punched in the mouth?
        No. I am saying that IF he treated people that way in person, (which I don't suspect he would), then he would likely provoke a hostile response. I am not saying that he deserves it. It is a natural response to insults.

        Tabibito summed it up well: "It was a parody of what he believes the Mormon teaching inevitably assigns as the proper role of motherhood.

        A parody of Mormon teachings? Do Christians not believe that Motherhood is a sacred duty, and an honorable one? Is pregnancy and being a home maker something to be disregarded as less than worthy?

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        If you go back and read the first page of the thread, Catholicity thought Sparko was making fun of motherhood/women too, but Sparko corrected her and went on to post LDS teachings that women ought to conform to the very stereotypes you are complaining about.
        Just "conform" to it? No. Society should respect the role of mothers. Period. The idea of women who raise children in the home is not a "stereotype that I am complaining about."

        I am complaining about the disrespect against women who do raise their children in the home.

        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        That is not the way the LDS heaven works, deary. Men do the work of creating and getting prayed to and sending out angels and so on. The wimmin folk just sit back and take care of the home cloud and kids, and bake muffins.
        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        You are the one who is not realizing what Sparko was saying.
        He was mocking home makers. He was also implying that those who stay at home are somehow doing something less important than those who are out working.

        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        Here's what I hear you saying: "Enough of your trivial, irrelevant quibbles with me; let's get back to what I want to do, which is demonstrate how brilliant I am compared to everyone else."
        No. I am saying that mocking LDS beliefs is not the same as deep discussion on theological topics. We have seen the difference between the two. Go to just about any thread started by these members we have discussed, and you will see that NONE of them are given for the purpose of understanding the LDS religion. In fact, most of them are just rehashing, and rehashing old attacks that have already been answered.

        -7up

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
          7up: That is why I suspect you are the kind of person who pulls off the hats of Orthodox Jews, then you pull their hair and tell them how stupid they look with all of their "nonsense". You are a despicable human being, and you don't even realize it. So, KD. Do you think that it would be "despicable" for him to make fun of Orthodox Jews for the way they dress, or other things about what they believe?
          Your heart is dark and full of wicked imaginations.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
            So, you glory in mocking people's beliefs in order to make them angry at you.

            Congratulations.

            -7up
            Come to think of it, you have a LOT in common with Tee Jay and Mickiel.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
              That is right. After MONTHS of this, I started responding with a similar tone to theirs.
              Seven, there's an old saying .... "what do you get when you squeeze a lemon?... you get what's inside".

              It apparently didn't take long to "get what's inside" you -- the anger and hatred, the darkness of your heart....

              I think Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and those who follow him are being duped. I in NO WAY hate you, of feel any anger toward you whatsoever. What amazes me is your inability to defend your faith. Christians all over the world are attacked for their faith, and they endure WAY more than just words on a computer screen.

              I have to believe your faith is NOT deep -- but you are stuck in a position where you are obligated to defend it no matter what. Your loyalty is to Joseph Smith and his teachings. Without Joseph Smith, you have nothing.

              I feel sorry for you. IF you had a deep and abiding faith, I believe you could be like the Christians all over the world who suffer REAL persecution and continue to serve Jesus.

              Your hope should be in Jesus, not in a man who claimed to be a prophet.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                Right Bill. You are just like Elijah.

                -7up
                Maybe I fall a bit short, but you are just like the prophets of Ba'al.
                That's what
                - She

                Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                Stephen R. Donaldson

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  I did that for a very, very long time. I have a long fuse, but they made it through it.
                  You came here with an ego the size of a red giant, belittled me as unable to communicate on your level, spoke to Nick like he was beneath you, and only AFTER that, and after several back and forths did I even say a single insult to you. You are delusional.
                  That's what
                  - She

                  Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                  - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                  I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                  Stephen R. Donaldson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                      You came here with an ego the size of a red giant, belittled me as unable to communicate on your level, spoke to Nick like he was beneath you, and only AFTER that, and after several back and forths did I even say a single insult to you. You are delusional.
                      Which is why he believes in Joseph Smith.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        7up,

                        1. Do you understand that what you said to CP on the "Since MAN can become God" thread came off as a direct insult? Do you agree that given that it came off that way, it was wrong for you to say those things?

                        2. I mean this in the best possible way and with all due respect. Have you ever been evaluated for Asperger's or autism? If not, do you often run into arguments because you've misunderstood what someone else has said or they've misunderstood what you've said?

                        3. You didn't respond to this: I understand being busy and not having time to respond, but if you're going to be on here and we're going to be debating, can you at least pick one of a) reading all the thread titles when you visit, b) turning on email notification for PMs or c) sending me your email address?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          7up,

                          I didn't mean to offend you, I hope you know that. I understand if the answer to my second question isn't something you want to discuss here and if you don't want to do email. The reason I asked is because that's the best possible light in which to interpret your posts. Either you are viewing the exchanges here very differently from me and the others here, or you're gaslighting me. If there's a third option, sorry, I don't see it. And going forward, I need to know if you're the kind of person who is going to gaslight and go to any lengths to avoid taking blame or not. (Plus, if you are on the spectrum, it would be really helpful for me to know that.)

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            And a couple other things...

                            4. So your standard is that no one should say anything negative about other beliefs, ever? If not, then please clarify. If we are going to continue discussing things, then I want to avoid offending you needlessly, so that's why I'm asking what your standard of "offensive" is.

                            OTOH, if you really think that what you said in the post I quoted about Trinitarianism was wrong, then...well, then I don't know what to say. I'm here because I think LDS beliefs are false and that it's important to know they're false because believing false things about God impacts one's relationship with God. You're here because you think our beliefs are false and you're trying to demonstrate that your beliefs are true, right? So can't we say outright that we think the other person's beliefs are false?

                            From what you've said, it's clear that you think my beliefs about God -- that he sends a good number of people to hell and intentionally created people despite knowing they would sin -- are not just false, but morally objectionable. And while I obviously disagree, I would much rather that you come out and say that than that you be like "I'm not going to say what I really think because that would be offensive, so let's just have a polite little discussion where no one challenges anyone." That's why I do apologetics -- because if people have moral objections to God, I want to answer them. I want to know what you think is offensive and morally wrong about my beliefs, so I can address those objections head on. And I want you to be serious about defending your faith, because if it's your faith and you really think it's true then you should defend it.

                            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                            That behavior is all that he does here. There is no respectable or intelligent debate coming from this individual. His behavior is a reflection of who he is on the inside.
                            I disagree.

                            Go to just about any thread started by these members we have discussed, and you will see that NONE of them are given for the purpose of understanding the LDS religion. In fact, most of them are just rehashing, and rehashing old attacks that have already been answered.
                            This is a discussion and debate forum run by traditional Christians, not a liberal "all religions are just different paths to truth" forum where nobody points out the logical inconsistencies, etc. in what someone else believes. If someone wants to understand the LDS religion, they go to a LDS-run forum. I'm on one of those too, and I ask questions to get a better understanding of LDS beliefs, and while I've asked some hard questions I pull my punches so I don't get banned.

                            Obviously, I'm not looking to join the LDS church. But if I were, I would be doing a lot of the same things I'm doing now, which is reading up on things and learning and asking hard questions and debating, because I have a lot of reasons for thinking the LDS church is not true and I would need to have those reasons thoroughly addressed if I were to join. And I couldn't do that on any LDS-run forums, because I haven't found any that allow open enough discussion for me to have those conversations without fear of being banned.

                            Aren't you here because you're defending your faith? Well, so are we.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Seven, there's an old saying .... "what do you get when you squeeze a lemon?... you get what's inside".

                              It apparently didn't take long to "get what's inside" you -- the anger and hatred, the darkness of your heart....
                              What does it say about you, when every post is filled with the same kind of axe grinding? Your tone is filled with mockery at every step.

                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I think Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and those who follow him are being duped.
                              I disagree. I believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet and apostle of Jesus Christ. I view him in the same way as I view other prophets and apostles of the Old and New Testaments.

                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I in NO WAY hate you, of feel any anger toward you whatsoever. What amazes me is your inability to defend your faith.
                              I say the same to you. You have put forward no significant input into any of the discussions that I brought forward here, whether it be ex nihilo creation, the nature of God, the Trinity, etc.

                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              I have to believe your faith is NOT deep -- but you are stuck in a position where you are obligated to defend it no matter what. Your loyalty is to Joseph Smith and his teachings. Without Joseph Smith, you have nothing.
                              Joseph Smith in and of himself does not mean anything. I view him as a tool in God's hands. As long as I have the doctrine, it could have been any other messenger.

                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Your hope should be in Jesus, not in a man who claimed to be a prophet.
                              If you believe that my faith and hope is not in Jesus, then you know absolutely nothing about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It only proves that this forum serves for nothing: It does not help people understand or know what Mormons believe; it is just a place for insecure Christians to post their mockery and accusations at LDS.

                              -7up

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                You came here with an ego the size of a red giant, belittled me as unable to communicate on your level, spoke to Nick like he was beneath you, and only AFTER that, and after several back and forths did I even say a single insult to you. You are delusional.

                                Nick was wise enough to admit that Ex Nihilo was an essential part of his theology from the beginning. Nick was willing to consider the possibility that his theology may be incorrect. With his philosophical background, he "gets it".

                                You were rude, mocking and sarcastic, from the very beginning Bill.

                                On probably the oldest thread going in the forum, "The Mormon Trinity" thread, your very first comment about me was:

                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                Oh yay... he's back...
                                Then your next post includes beautiful vocabulary like "crappy bastardization" , "Rubbish", then you said that my arguments were equal to "whining".

                                This was way back in May of this year, when I just started posting after the crash. Then, since everything previous was lost, I was drawing up my issues with the concept of Ex Nihilo creation. On this topic, instead of the addressing my arguments, you again simply say that I am "whining" rather than discuss the issues being brought up:

                                Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                                This turns into a big whine on God "should have been able to" only create those who would choose salvation.
                                -7up

                                Comment

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