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Hey 7up

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  • Hey 7up

    7up, I noticed you did not respond to this post where I brought up some issues I have with you.

    If you have not responded because you haven't read it until now, is there a better way for this sort of conversation to take place other than me starting a thread with your name on it? I dislike doing this, but I will choose to do it over leaving issues unresolved.

    If you have not responded because you are choosing not to respond, then that's your choice and I can't make you respond; but could you at least tell me how I should interpret your not responding? E.g. do you avoid conflict, do you think there is nothing to be gained from responding, do you think I'm being unreasonable, etc.

    Thanks.

  • #2
    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      No popcorn, you guys.

      See what I mean about starting a thread?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
        No popcorn, you guys.

        See what I mean about starting a thread?
        That just means I'm keeping my mouth shut. (except, of course, to consume the snack)
        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
          7up, I noticed you did not respond to this post where I brought up some issues I have with you.
          I just saw this. I have been busy.

          Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
          7up, I am trying to be honest in a constructive manner here. I am pretty steamed at you, but I am trying to not unnecessarily hurt your feelings.
          Read this forum and that thread and many others. These people have been insulting at every turn the sincerely held sacred beliefs of good Mormons around the world. You yourself admitted that they were mocking and insulting LDS beliefs when you said:

          KD: There is a certain amount of "egging on" that goes on here, from Sparko and CP mocking LDS beliefs and attempts to defend them to BTC outright insulting 7up and calling him "stupid" and "nitwit." And 7up has started responding with his own insults...

          You and I both know what they are doing, and you and I both have an idea what inspires this kind of behavior.

          But, let's address my comments in detail as you requested.

          7up: That is why I suspect you are the kind of person who pulls off the hats of Orthodox Jews, then you pull their hair and tell them how stupid they look with all of their "nonsense". You are a despicable human being, and you don't even realize it.

          So, KD. Do you think that it would be "despicable" for him to make fun of Orthodox Jews for the way they dress, or other things about what they believe? I certainly do. Are you aware of the parallels between how LDS and Jews view covenants and the symbol of those covenants in worship? Well then, that is the parallel I was making. Making fun of Mormons about what we wear and what we believe is exactly what he was doing.

          Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
          You made some incredibly vicious personal attacks on Cow Poke:
          I was putting a mirror up to his face.

          Originally posted by Kind Debater View Post
          If you have not responded because you haven't read it until now, is there a better way for this sort of conversation to take place other than me starting a thread with your name on it? I dislike doing this, but I will choose to do it over leaving issues unresolved.
          It works fine for me. I appreciate you doing it. Here is Cow Poke responding to me from the other thread:

          7up: Most LDS feel that the teaching of Heavenly Mother is a very sacred truth

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          "Heavenly Mother" is more "sacred" than GOD? ...
          Now, for starters, I never said what he claimed here, but he continues...

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          I don't respect totally made up nonsense. It's neither sacred NOR holy. ...
          You're about as good an "apologist" as I am a ballerina.
          Now KD, you and I both know that I am not a Buddhist or a Muslim or an Orthodox Jew. However, I would not approach our differences in doctrine by making fun of their hat, or their underwear, or their sacredly held religious views. It is like the atheist who take a painting of Jesus and publicly urinates on it. I can't help but get angry about that.

          I told Cow Poke that he was a despicable human being, based on how he was acting. I apologize in hind sight, but quite frankly, if he said those things to to me in person, in the heat of the moment, I would have punched him right in the mouth.

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          making brutal personal attacks and then not only not apologizing for them, but justifying them as "defending motherhood"
          Do you not realize that all they did in order to make fun of the LDS view of a Heavenly Mother was to transfer stereotypes about mortal mothers onto Her.

          I am sorry if you don't see the problem with that.

          -7up
          Last edited by seven7up; 08-04-2014, 03:29 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Let me give you a list of comments just from one single thread:

            Sparko: so much for having a direct hotline to God through their Prophet.

            Trout: Right! Who makes up this stuff?

            Sparko: Obviously the LDS leaders do,...

            Cow Poke: My all time favorite was the "revelation" to Joseph Smith that his dear sweet wife would be destroyed if she didn't stop protesting his alliances with other women.

            Sparko: I always like the story of the 116 missing pages that Lucy Harris stole, and Smith's subsequent revelation that God would not re-dictate those pages to him. LOL.

            Bill the Cat: And how eternal marriage and spiritual procreation will work...

            Cow Poke: My favorite part of that is the "cancellation ceremony" to end "eternal" sealings,

            Trout: Sandra Tanner calls it, "The Black Hole"



            So, on and on they go. Mocking the LDS amongst themselves.


            You can read my response at the end of that thread.

            -7up

            Comment


            • #7
              So, now that we've had our fun. Can we go back to discussing actual theology?


              This is "theology web" after all.


              -7up

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                I was putting a mirror up to his face.
                Unfortunately, you forgot to turn it around so you weren't looking at yourself!
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  Cow Poke: My all time favorite was the "revelation" to Joseph Smith that his dear sweet wife would be destroyed if she didn't stop protesting his alliances with other women.
                  I stand by that. And you have yet to appropriately answer that.

                  Cow Poke: My favorite part of that is the "cancellation ceremony" to end "eternal" sealings,
                  OK, so explain why God would want somebody to be "eternally sealed", including the children, then allow the nice Mormon couple to divorce, and get "eternally sealed" to OTHER people, with absolutely no explanation of what happens to the "eternally sealed" children.

                  So, AGAIN, I stand by my statement which was NOT a PERSONAL ATTACK against you, as you so often do, but was an exposure of your false teachings.

                  But feel free to pitch a hissy and call names!
                  "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                    I told Cow Poke that he was a despicable human being, based on how he was acting. I apologize in hind sight, but quite frankly, if he said those things to to me in person, in the heat of the moment, I would have punched him right in the mouth.
                    Ah, so now the TOUGH GUY routine. Stand in line behind Mickiel and --- who was that other really crazy guy (Tee Jay?) who threatened to come to Texas and whoop my !#$!^!^?

                    I suppose the Mormon version of 1 Peter 3:15 is....
                    15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and be ready always to give an answer to every man who asketh you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear, but if they don't accept your answer, then call names, make false accusations, pitch a fit, and beat the stuffings out of them.

                    Last edited by Cow Poke; 08-04-2014, 10:34 AM.
                    "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                      You and I both know what they are doing, and you and I both have an idea what inspires this kind of behavior.
                      Why are you assuming my idea is the same as yours?

                      Originally posted by 7up
                      But, let's address my comments in detail as you requested.

                      7up: That is why I suspect you are the kind of person who pulls off the hats of Orthodox Jews, then you pull their hair and tell them how stupid they look with all of their "nonsense". You are a despicable human being, and you don't even realize it.

                      So, KD. Do you think that it would be "despicable" for him to make fun of Orthodox Jews for the way they dress, or other things about what they believe?
                      Yes, that would be despicable behavior. There's a big difference between saying someone's behavior is despicable and saying he himself is despicable. The former, properly used, is expressing condemnation of immoral behavior; the latter is verbal abuse.

                      Originally posted by 7up
                      Originally posted by KD
                      You made some incredibly vicious personal attacks on Cow Poke:
                      I was putting a mirror up to his face.
                      There are different ways of doing that. Nathan did that for David by telling him a story about a rich man who took a poor man's pet lamb to be dinner for his guest. You can show someone what their behavior is like without imitating it yourself.

                      Besides, in the quotes I posted after the "despicable" quote, you were just lashing out at CP. Here, for instance:

                      CP: Yeah, I just got back from Israel, where I actually traveled WITH Orthodox Jews and we actually got along just great!

                      7up: You must have faked it. You just paid them lip service, just like the god you pretend to serve.

                      How is accusing CP of being a blatant social and spiritual hypocrite "putting a mirror up to his face"?

                      Originally posted by 7up
                      It works fine for me. I appreciate you doing it.
                      It doesn't work so well for me. Since you posted on the forum after I started this thread but apparently didn't see the thread until last night, that doesn't seem to be a good way of getting things resolved in a timely manner either. If there had actually been other LDS posters here, by the time you came back from your hiatus the thread could have been towards the bottom of the page or on a previous page, and who knows how long it would have taken you to see it.

                      I understand being busy and not having time to respond, but if you're going to be on here and we're going to be debating, can you at least pick one of a) reading all the thread titles when you visit, b) turning on email notification for PMs or c) sending me your email address?

                      Originally posted by 7up
                      Here is Cow Poke responding to me from the other thread:

                      7up: Most LDS feel that the teaching of Heavenly Mother is a very sacred truth, and we won't know much about it in this life. It is a pearl that "swine will trample under foot".

                      CP: "Heavenly Mother" is more "sacred" than GOD? ...

                      Now, for starters, I never said what he claimed here...
                      I included more of your quote because it gives the context for what CP said. If the reason for there not being much teaching on Heavenly Mother is because such teaching is "very sacred" and a "pearl," what does it say about Heavenly Father that there is so much teaching about him? Besides, CP ended his statement with a question mark. I understood him to be pointing out the implications of what you said for you to respond to.

                      BTW, why are we talking about CP's posts, when the original topic was your posts?

                      Originally posted by 7up
                      ...but he continues...
                      Originally posted by CP
                      I don't respect totally made up nonsense. It's neither sacred NOR holy. ...
                      You're about as good an "apologist" as I am a ballerina.
                      Now KD, you and I both know that I am not a Buddhist or a Muslim or an Orthodox Jew. However, I would not approach our differences in doctrine by making fun of their hat, or their underwear, or their sacredly held religious views. It is like the atheist who take a painting of Jesus and publicly urinates on it.
                      I'm surprised that of all the posts on that thread, you picked this one as an example of how badly you think CP was behaving. In this particular quote, I think he was making fun of you with the ballerina crack, but in the first part of it I think he was just saying what he thought. I don't think it was necessarily good for him to say what he thought -- obviously you knew by then that he thinks LDS beliefs are false, and it wasn't constructive for him to outright call it nonsense. OTOH, as far as I know he was stating what he honestly thought and was not intentionally trying to offend you, as opposed to your example of someone harassing an Orthodox Jew.

                      Please explain why CP's calling your beliefs "nonsense" is equivalent to an atheist urinating on a picture of Christ, but it's totally okay for you to say things like:

                      Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                      (emphasis added)

                      Therefore, Trinitarians had to invent concepts like Jesus being constantly issued forth from the Father, who sustains the Son's existence from all eternity and thus is called "eternally begotten". This was a ploy to change the meaning of the language and what it actually means to be "begotten". Don't expect LDS to buy into it. You have to come up with silly things like "functional subordination", whereby Jesus has to act like he is subordinate to the Father, but he really isn't because they are actually the same being/substance. All of that is nonsense and unBiblical.
                      Sounds to me like you're saying that traditional Trinitarianism is silly, made-up nonsense. And IMO, you have every right to say that if you're simply stating what you believe and not intentionally trying to offend. But you don't have the right to say that and then turn around and accuse others of denigrating religious beliefs and being "despicable human beings" for doing the exact same thing you do.

                      I can't help but get angry about that.
                      Maybe not, but you can help how you react to it. "He made me mad" isn't an excuse for any kind of behavior.

                      I told Cow Poke that he was a despicable human being, based on how he was acting.
                      You made assumptions of how he would treat Jews in person, and then told him he was a despicable human being based on your assumptions.

                      I apologize in hind sight,
                      Apologizing for a behavior implies that the behavior was wrong. Defending a behavior implies that the behavior was justified. So far you have attempted to defend and justify your behavior, including calling CP a despicable human being. What does your apology then refer to?

                      but quite frankly, if he said those things to to me in person, in the heat of the moment, I would have punched him right in the mouth.
                      And the reason you felt the need to say this is because...? Are you trying to justify your behavior with "but he made me so mad!", in the very same sentence as your attempted apology? Are you saying that CP deserves to be punched in the mouth? Or that I need to avoid meeting you in person because you have a violent temper?

                      Do you not realize that all they did in order to make fun of the LDS view of a Heavenly Mother was to transfer stereotypes about mortal mothers onto Her.
                      Tabibito summed it up well:

                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                      It was a parody of what he believes the Mormon teaching inevitably assigns as the proper role of motherhood. The appropriate response would be to demonstrate where that perception went awry, citing actual teachings.
                      If you go back and read the first page of the thread, Catholicity thought Sparko was making fun of motherhood/women too, but Sparko corrected her and went on to post LDS teachings that women ought to conform to the very stereotypes you are complaining about. Catholicity accepted that that's what he meant and went on to make a joke.

                      You are the one who is not realizing what Sparko was saying.

                      Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                      Let me give you a list of comments just from one single thread:
                      Again, why are you bringing up what everyone else said? This thread is about you and what you said.

                      You can read my response at the end of that thread.
                      Looks to me like you went against the teaching of Proverbs 26:4.

                      Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                      So, now that we've had our fun. Can we go back to discussing actual theology?

                      This is "theology web" after all.
                      Here's what I hear you saying: "Enough of your trivial, irrelevant quibbles with me; let's get back to what I want to do, which is demonstrate how brilliant I am compared to everyone else."

                      Sure, I'd like to get back to discussing theology, which is one reason I wish you had seen my original post sooner (and had addressed it in its entirety when you did see it). But at this point, I have serious doubts about your integrity.
                      • You have shown evidence of having a severe double standard when it comes to judging other people's behavior versus your own (and BTW, I see this remark here as another double standard -- you don't seem to mind repeatedly saying "pearls before swine" to other posters, but now that it's about your behavior, suddenly it's "Let's get back to discussing theology, shall we?").
                      • You personally insulted another poster and dealt with it by giving a non-apology apology, which could even be seen as containing a threat.
                      • You've responded to several of my issues with you by bringing up what other people did and/or ignoring what I said.


                      How do I know that you're not going to use a double standard with me? How do I know that if I prove you wrong on something, you'll admit it?

                      Feel free to prove me wrong by demonstrating that you can, in fact, own up to your own mistakes and take responsibility for them.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                        So, on and on they go. Mocking the LDS amongst themselves.

                        I think I've mocked you to your face (so to speak) plenty. Just like Elijah mocked the servants of Ba'al.
                        That's what
                        - She

                        Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
                        - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

                        I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
                        Stephen R. Donaldson

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Here is what is SO silly....

                          I stand up to 7up (sounds like the title of a song! ) and he lashes back with goofy allegations...
                          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                          That is why I suspect you are the kind of person who pulls off the hats of Orthodox Jews, then you pull their hair and tell them how stupid they look with all of their "nonsense".
                          7up, is your logic and reasoning SO BAD, that you can actually jump from "arguing with a Mormon" to "pulling the hats off orthodox Jews, pulling their hair, and telling them how stupid they look"? I mean, is your heart THAT DARK?

                          I think that's EXACTLY what it is -- you are so full of hate that you CAN jump from "arguing" to "physical violence" as a "logical" assumption.

                          You are a despicable human being, and you don't even realize it.
                          Well, perhaps based on the foolish and dark imaginations of your heart.


                          Lemme ask you this, 7up.... do you believe you are a "typical" Mormon?
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            I stand by that. And you have yet to appropriately answer that.
                            I did answer it. And I answered it Biblically, by showing that anybody who willingly defies God is threatened with destruction.

                            -7up

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Bill the Cat View Post
                              I think I've mocked you to your face (so to speak) plenty. Just like Elijah mocked the servants of Ba'al.
                              Right Bill. You are just like Elijah.

                              -7up

                              Comment

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