Announcement

Collapse

LDS - Mormonism Guidelines

Theists only.

Look! It's a bird, no it's a plane, no it's a bicycle built for two!

This forum is a debate area to discuss issues pertaining to the LDS - Mormons. This forum is generally for theists only, and is generaly not the area for debate between atheists and theists. Non-theists may not post here without first obtaining permission from the moderator of this forum. Granting of such permission is subject to Moderator discretion - and may be revoked if the Moderator feels that the poster is not keeping with the spirit of the World Religions Department.

Due to the sensitive nature of the LDS Temple Ceremonies to our LDS posters, we do not allow posting exact text of the temple rituals, articles describing older versions of the ceremony, or links that provide the same information. However discussion of generalities of the ceremony are not off limits. If in doubt, PM the area mod or an Admin


Non-theists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 forum without such restrictions.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Really? Excommunicating Opinions?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Really? Excommunicating Opinions?

    Earlier yesterday I read about Kate Kelly and John Dehlin. Kate is being excommunicated for being part of a group called Ordain Women who has been trying to get the church to reconsider the roles of women in the church. She is being brought up on charges for Apostasy. John Dehlin supported homosexual acceptance in the church, he is also being exed by the LDS church.

    Personally I find this to be the prime example of cowardice. These two people have brains and form their own opinions and the church is saying "we don't like your opinions so there's no room in this church for you." Am I the only one that finds the church being a little chicken guano all because they don't like their sheeple forming their own opinions?
    I am Punkinhead.

    "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

    ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

  • #2
    I read this as the organization trying to reassert control. You know them better than I do, but based on what I've seen about their issues, they're feeling the pain from being questioned about their most basic doctrines. I mean, they've always been under pressure about their teachings about Jesus and salvation. But I've noticed that since they stopped their practice of saying they were not Christians, they've become very intolerant of dissent.
    Watch your links! http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/fa...corumetiquette

    Comment


    • #3
      I thought Dehlin was being excommunicated because of his views on the lack of historicity of the Book of Mormon.
      That's what
      - She

      Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals
      - Manya the Holy Szin (The Quintara Marathon)

      I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common
      Stephen R. Donaldson

      Comment


      • #4
        As I kept saying to the mormons here, the LDS church believes the Prophet and Apostles are God's mouthpiece. Either agree with them or leave. If you disagree with what they say, then you are disagreeing with God. That's how they think.

        https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/...ophet?lang=eng
        14 Fundamentals in following the prophet:
        excerpts:
        1: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

        11: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

        14: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

        ----


        Heck there is even a hymn about it:

        We Follow the Prophet

        Music from the Ensign

        1. We follow the prophet, we love to obey.
        We listen and learn as he shows us the way.

        Chorus:
        We follow him gladly, with faith in his word,
        For he speaks the will of the Lord.

        2. We honor the prophet, we lengthen our stride.
        We speak of him kindly, in love and in pride.
        Chorus

        3. We pray for the prophet, that he may be strong,
        Defending the right and condemning the wrong.
        Chorus

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          As I kept saying to the mormons here, the LDS church believes the Prophet and Apostles are God's mouthpiece. Either agree with them or leave. If you disagree with what they say, then you are disagreeing with God. That's how they think.

          https://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/...ophet?lang=eng
          14 Fundamentals in following the prophet:
          excerpts:
          1: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

          11: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

          14: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

          ----


          Heck there is even a hymn about it:

          We Follow the Prophet

          Music from the Ensign

          1. We follow the prophet, we love to obey.
          We listen and learn as he shows us the way.

          Chorus:
          We follow him gladly, with faith in his word,
          For he speaks the will of the Lord.

          2. We honor the prophet, we lengthen our stride.
          We speak of him kindly, in love and in pride.
          Chorus

          3. We pray for the prophet, that he may be strong,
          Defending the right and condemning the wrong.
          Chorus
          Sounds like it could have been written by a Muslim about Islam.

          Comment


          • #6
            You are not excommunicated for your opinions. You are not excommunicated for asking questions. You are excommunicated for your actions. I am confident that both of these individuals were counseled by their bishops and were told exactly what their actions were that were called into question. And from what I have read on the net, it seems that John Dehlin asked for his court, he was not threatened. These people can say anything they want because they know that the Church will not make any public statements. The Church considers a disciplinary court a private matter and will not discuss it publically. By taking advantage of the Church's position these two people can say anything they want without fear that the Church will say anything.

            Do you remember that woman in the 80s who was excommunicated from the church? She wrote the book entitled "From Housewife to Heretic"? I read the first chapter of her book and she was one strange woman. She prayed to a Heavenly Mother among other things. A lot of people wanted you to think she was excommunicated for her stance on the ERA. This was not true. She was excommunicated because she was preaching and teaching that no one should talk to the missionaries until the Church and prophet changed their stance on the ERA. She was actively working against the Church. This is one rare case where the Bishop who held the court issued a public statement about exactly what she was excommunicated for. And it was not what she claimed.

            Marvin

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Russianwolfe View Post
              I read the first chapter of her book and she was one strange woman. She prayed to a Heavenly Mother among other things.
              In Mormon Theology why is this strange?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                Heck there is even a hymn about it:

                We Follow the Prophet

                Music from the Ensign

                1. We follow the prophet, we love to obey.
                We listen and learn as he shows us the way.

                Chorus:
                We follow him gladly, with faith in his word,
                For he speaks the will of the Lord.

                2. We honor the prophet, we lengthen our stride.
                We speak of him kindly, in love and in pride.
                Chorus

                3. We pray for the prophet, that he may be strong,
                Defending the right and condemning the wrong.
                Chorus
                And they claim they don't worship Smith!
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Russianwolfe View Post
                  You are not excommunicated for your opinions. You are not excommunicated for asking questions. You are excommunicated for your actions. I am confident that both of these individuals were counseled by their bishops and were told exactly what their actions were that were called into question. And from what I have read on the net, it seems that John Dehlin asked for his court, he was not threatened. These people can say anything they want because they know that the Church will not make any public statements. The Church considers a disciplinary court a private matter and will not discuss it publically. By taking advantage of the Church's position these two people can say anything they want without fear that the Church will say anything.

                  Do you remember that woman in the 80s who was excommunicated from the church? She wrote the book entitled "From Housewife to Heretic"? I read the first chapter of her book and she was one strange woman. She prayed to a Heavenly Mother among other things. A lot of people wanted you to think she was excommunicated for her stance on the ERA. This was not true. She was excommunicated because she was preaching and teaching that no one should talk to the missionaries until the Church and prophet changed their stance on the ERA. She was actively working against the Church. This is one rare case where the Bishop who held the court issued a public statement about exactly what she was excommunicated for. And it was not what she claimed.

                  Marvin

                  I was excommunicated for Apostasy last year. I was asking very direct questions and when the Stake President said that I relied on the the Bible too much. He also stated that the Bible is corrupt and irrelevant. I asked him if that's what the church teaches and when he confirmed it, I said "then the church can't be true". Two weeks later, I was excommunicated, all because I questioned and had an opinion.
                  I am Punkinhead.

                  "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

                  ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ke7ejx View Post
                    I was excommunicated for Apostasy last year. I was asking very direct questions and when the Stake President said that I relied on the the Bible too much. He also stated that the Bible is corrupt and irrelevant. I asked him if that's what the church teaches and when he confirmed it, I said "then the church can't be true". Two weeks later, I was excommunicated, all because I questioned and had an opinion.
                    Interesting and thanks.

                    What were the direct questions you were asking?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by foudroyant View Post
                      In Mormon Theology why is this strange?
                      You should read the chapter. She has a 'close personal relationship with Heavenly Mother' and prayed to her as she battled the male hierarchy within the church in an attempt to bring about changes she thought should be made. Beside violating scripture and doctrine, she was working against the church.

                      Marvin

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Russianwolfe View Post
                        You should read the chapter. She has a 'close personal relationship with Heavenly Mother' and prayed to her as she battled the male hierarchy within the church in an attempt to bring about changes she thought should be made. Beside violating scripture and doctrine, she was working against the church.

                        Marvin
                        What's wrong with having a 'close personal relationship with Heavenly Mother"? Mormons even have a hymn about her?

                        Hmmmm.... I wonder if the Mormons are trying to ERASE "Heavenly Mother"... I used to get this info from BYU Studies, but today, there's just this...

                        Source: BYU Studies

                        This page is temporarily down.
                        We are undergoing maintenance.

                        Phone: (801) 422-6691
                        Email: byustudies2@byu.edu

                        © Copyright Original Source



                        An article in Sunstone Magazine appears to agree.

                        heavenly mother.jpg

                        From that article:

                        Source: the Sunstone Article

                        While President Hinckley says this prohibition in no way
                        “belittles or denigrates her,” it surely makes her secondary in
                        some way to Heavenly Father, as does President Hinckley’s as-
                        sertion that men have a “governing responsibility” over
                        women (though he says men are not supposed to rule despot-
                        ically). While he does not forbid discussion about Heavenly
                        Mother, he does mark her position as problematic, especially
                        given the way he contextualizes his comments about her. After
                        assuring Virginia that women are of equal worth with men to
                        their Heavenly Father, who loves them, and after advising her
                        that she should talk to her Father in prayer, President Hinckley
                        uses the mention of prayer as his segue to the inappropriate-
                        ness of praying to the Heavenly Mother, privately or in public.
                        He then remarks that those who have done so “are well-
                        meaning, but they are misguided.”12

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        Last edited by Cow Poke; 06-16-2014, 10:09 AM.
                        "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          From FairMormon.org
                          Source: Fair

                          Latter-day Saints infer the existence of a Heavenly Mother through scripture and modern revelation. Because LDS theology rejects the doctrine of creation out of nothing (creatio ex nihilo) as a post-Biblical addition to Christian belief, and because they see God as embodied in human form while rejecting creedal Trinitarianism, having a female counterpart to Our Heavenly Father seems logical and almost inevitable. This is especially true given the LDS embrace of the doctrine of theosis, or human deification. Thus, the Heavenly Mother shares parenthood with the Father, and shares His attributes of perfection, holiness, and glory.

                          There is evidence for this doctrine in ancient Israel,[1] and within the Book of Mormon.[2]

                          As early as 1839, Joseph Smith taught the idea of a Heavenly Mother.[3] Eliza R. Snow composed a poem (later set to music) which provides the most well-known expression of this doctrine:[4]

                          In the heav´ns are parents single?
                          No, the thought makes reason stare!
                          Truth is reason; truth eternal
                          Tells me I´ve a mother there.
                          When I leave this frail existence,
                          When I lay this mortal by,
                          Father, Mother, may I meet you
                          In your royal courts on high?

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          However, after "inventing" Heavenly Mother, the Mormon leadership apparently realized a problem, and taught she should NOT be prayed to.

                          Source: Fair


                          As President Gordon B. Hinckley observed:

                          Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven...The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her...none of us can add to or diminish the glory of her of whom we have no revealed knowledge.

                          © Copyright Original Source



                          This looks like the whole "Eternal Sealing" thing, which was "eternal", til the question of divorce came up, then it was TEMPORARILY eternal because it could be "canceled", but nobody could explain what happens to the CHILDREN who were eternally sealed to the now divorced parents, then subsequently are eternally sealed to the remarried parent.
                          "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Which heavenly mother? I thought God had a whole harem of them?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              And they claim they don't worship Smith!
                              Muslims do the same with Islam, and denying worship of Mohammed, despite such things existing in the ahadith. People were apparently even willing to rub, or even drink his urine thinking it would be good for them because of his status.

                              Source: Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 3, Book 50, #891

                              Before embracing Islam Al-Mughira was in the company of some people. He killed them and took their property and came (to Medina) to embrace Islam. The Prophet said (to him, "As regards your Islam, I accept it, but as for the property I do not take anything of it. (As it was taken through treason). Urwa then started looking at the Companions of the Prophet. By Allah, whenever Allah's Apostle spat, the spittle would fall in the hand of one of them (i.e. the Prophet's companions) who would rub it on his face and skin; if he ordered them they would carry his orders immediately; if he performed ablution, they would struggle to take the remaining water; and when they spoke to him, they would lower their voices and would not look at his face constantly out of respect. Urwa returned to his people and said, "O people! By Allah, I have been to the kings and to Caesar, Khosrau and An-Najashi, yet I have never seen any of them respected by his courtiers as much as Muhammad is respected by his companions. By Allah, if he spat, the spittle would fall in the hand of one of them (i.e. the Prophet's companions) who would rub it on his face and skin; if he ordered them, they would carry out his order immediately; if he performed ablution, they would struggle to take the remaining water; and when they spoke, they would lower their voices and would not look at his face constantly out of respect." Urwa added, "No doubt, he has presented to you a good reasonable offer, so please accept it." A man from the tribe of Bani Kinana said, "Allow me to go to him," and they allowed him, and when he approached the Prophet and his companions, Allah's Ap le I said, "He is so-and-so who belongs to the tribe that respects the Budn (i.e. camels of the sacrifice). So, bring the Budn in front of him." So, the Budn were brought before him and the people received him while they were reciting Talbiya. When he saw that scene, he said, "Glorified be Allah! It is not fair to prevent these people from visiting the Ka'ba." When he returned to his people, he said, 'I saw the Budn garlanded (with colored knotted ropes) and marked (with stabs on their backs). I do not think it is advisable to prevent them from visiting the Ka'ba." Another person called Mikraz bin Hafs got up and sought their permission to go to Muhammad, and they allowed him, too. When he approached the Muslims, the Prophet said, "Here is Mikraz and he is a vicious man." Mikraz started talking to the Prophet and as he was talking, Suhail bin Amr came.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              I sure hope there aren't stories like that about Joseph Smith.

                              Link to the whole hadith here.

                              Comment

                              widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                              Working...
                              X