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Carbon Dioxide's Anti-Mormon Training Thread

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sparko View Post
    that verse doesn't even make a lick of sense. Was Smith drinking when he wrote it?

    So basically you are saying that if something is an ABOMINATION to God, and he considers it a WHOREDOM, that he might change his mind later? And then change it back just coincidentally when the US government steps in and makes polygamy illegal?

    Does that mean that one day God might change his mind about anything? Like Murder? One day he might decided that murder is not a sin and command mormons to go around murdering innocent people. Or maybe that is what happened during the MM massacre? Hmmm?

    Do you really want to argue that God will change his mind about something he claims is a sin and an abomination to him?


    The motivations behind our actions matter Sparko.

    The abomination was men doing things based on their own selfish reasons, multiplying wives unto themselves.

    Perhaps that is too subtle of a concept for you to understand.

    -7up
    Last edited by seven7up; 06-01-2014, 02:35 PM.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by seven7up View Post
      The motivations behind our actions matter Sparko.

      The abomination was men doing things based on their own selfish reasons, multiplying wives unto themselves.

      Perhaps that is too subtle of a concept for you to understand.

      -7up
      yeah right. That is why he called having more than one wife a whoredom and an abomination.

      Oh wait, he said he delights in the chastity of women. Oops. I guess Smith forgot that part when he decided to institute polygamy again and blackmail his own wife Emma with threats from God when he decided to multiply wives for his own selfish reasons, even to taking OTHER men's wives as his own.

      Smith was a sick pervert.

      Comment


      • #18
        oh and conveniently God made multiple wives a condition for exaltation. But apparently it wasn't a condition before, and it isn't now. The Mormon God keeps changing his mind.

        You never did answer my question about whether God can change his mind about anything, including murder. Please answer.


        --

        Does that mean that one day God might change his mind about anything? Like Murder? One day he might decided that murder is not a sin and command mormons to go around murdering innocent people. Or maybe that is what happened during the MM massacre? Hmmm?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
          I like how you cut the verse out of context.
          I don't suppose you'd like to take a crack at the OP, eh?
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sparko View Post
            That is why he called having more than one wife a whoredom and an abomination.

            Oh wait, he said he delights in the chastity of women.
            The passage preaches against GREED, and PRIDE, and LUST, etc.

            Again, it shows how shallow an understanding you have. A person can be wealthy, with many riches, but not be guilty of greed. A person can have sexual relations with a lawfully wedded spouse, and not be guilty of "whoredoms."

            The Lord is referring to the same concept as we see in the Old Testament: Deut 17:17 "He shall not multiply wives for himself". This implies that the person is doing it for his own selfish purposes. Jacob is also referring to examples like the following:

            1 Kings 11:1
            King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter--Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites.

            1 Kings 11:3
            He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray.

            1 Kings 11:4
            As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God,


            LDS polygamy was not the same as the examples you see above, and any responsible historian knows that.

            Originally posted by Sparko View Post

            Smith was a sick pervert.

            That is your opinion based on what YOU think his motivations were.

            Sorry Sparko, but you are not in the position to make that judgement.


            -7up

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Today's lesson is "Why God would give Smith a "revelation" threatening his dear sweet and obedient wife with DESTRUCTION if she didn't go along with Smith's polygamy scheme which was subsequently recalled".


              So, Cow Poke, can you think of any examples where God destroys, or threatens to destroy people who are not willing to follow God's commandments?

              I will continue to respond to your mockery, as soon as you explain, in detail .... Let's say , for fun ... Genesis 38:9-10 , where God killed a man for disobeying his orders to impregnate his dead brother's wife.


              -7up

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                You never did answer my question about whether God can change his mind about anything, including murder. Please answer.

                I DID answer. And I even explained to you why you are apparently incapable of understanding the answer. Let me break it down slower for you.


                God is always against an individual deciding to multiply wives unto themselves for their own selfish purposes. That is different than obeying God's commands to practice plural marriage for the purpose of building up the kingdom. There is a different purpose and motivation involved.

                Likewise, killing another person in self defense is not the same as killing someone because of hate in your heart.

                -7up

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  The passage preaches against GREED, and PRIDE, and LUST, etc.

                  Again, it shows how shallow an understanding you have. A person can be wealthy, with many riches, but not be guilty of greed. A person can have sexual relations with a lawfully wedded spouse, and not be guilty of "whoredoms."

                  The Lord is referring to the same concept as we see in the Old Testament: Deut 17:17 "He shall not multiply wives for himself". This implies that the person is doing it for his own selfish purposes. Jacob is also referring to examples like the following:

                  1 Kings 11:1
                  King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter--Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites.

                  1 Kings 11:3
                  He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray.

                  1 Kings 11:4
                  As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the LORD his God,


                  LDS polygamy was not the same as the examples you see above, and any responsible historian knows that.




                  That is your opinion based on what YOU think his motivations were.

                  Sorry Sparko, but you are not in the position to make that judgement.


                  -7up
                  so you still won't answer my question?

                  Does that mean that one day God might change his mind about anything? Like Murder? One day he might decided that murder is not a sin and command mormons to go around murdering innocent people. Or maybe that is what happened during the MM massacre? Hmmm?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                    I DID answer. And I even explained to you why you are apparently incapable of understanding the answer. Let me break it down slower for you.


                    God is always against an individual deciding to multiply wives unto themselves for their own selfish purposes. That is different than obeying God's commands to practice plural marriage for the purpose of building up the kingdom. There is a different purpose and motivation involved.

                    Likewise, killing another person in self defense is not the same as killing someone because of hate in your heart.

                    -7up
                    so what purpose did polygamy serve the mormons and Smith? There were plenty of men to go around. Smith even took to taking the wives of other men to himself. And he threatened Emma if she didn't go along with it.

                    If polygamy was necessary for the mormons, then why was it abandoned so soon after it was commanded? Why is it now an abomination again?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Smith even took to taking the wives of other men to himself.
                      Not all of the men were true to the faith, and not all of the men were in the position to support a family. So, the number of men is not the whole issue.

                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      Smith even took to taking the wives of other men to himself.
                      For starters, Joseph was sealed to many, many people without actually having sexual intercourse with all of them. At that point, he appears to have imagined that everyone would have to be sealed to everyone else in some way or another.

                      Second, this was an extremely difficult thing to do, and it wasn't always handled the right way. I cannot claim that I would be able to handle it well either.

                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      If polygamy was necessary for the mormons, then why was it abandoned so soon after it was commanded?
                      50 years was enough time to establish them as a strong group in the western united states.

                      -7up

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                        So, Cow Poke, can you think of any examples where God destroys, or threatens to destroy people who are not willing to follow God's commandments?
                        So, you're not gonna answer -- you're just gonna play games.

                        I will continue to respond to your mockery, as soon as you explain, in detail .... Let's say , for fun ... Genesis 38:9-10 , where God killed a man for disobeying his orders to impregnate his dead brother's wife.


                        -7up
                        God didn't threaten to destroy Emma --- Smith CLAIMED he threatened. And WHY? Smith came up with the plural marriages scam, Emma opposed it, so Smith came up with the phoney threat that she would be destroyed if she didn't go along with it. Then, oddly enough, the plural marriage scam kinda evaporated.

                        What a CONFUSED God Mormons have!
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                          Not all of the men were true to the faith, and not all of the men were in the position to support a family. So, the number of men is not the whole issue.

                          -7up
                          Hmmmm... so maybe that's why Smith put a bar in his hotel! Not ALL men were bartenders, so Smith had to .....

                          Emma didn't like the bar, either, but fortunately, God didn't threaten to destroy her if she opposed it.
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                            I like how you cut the verse out of context. That would be part of learning about Anti-Mormonism, as it is an all too frequent tactic. Here are the next two verses:

                            29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
                            30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; OTHERWISE they shall hearken unto these things.


                            Can you honestly tell me that you weren't aware of the next two verses in the context? Or are you unable to understand what it means?

                            I have not the time or energy to pick apart all of these anti-mormon arguments. Especially when it has already been done over and over again.

                            -7up
                            This is awesome. You're defending a practice your church doesn't even practice any more by bringing up a verse that shows your god to be completely arbitrary in what he considers an abomination. Which you evidently realize doesn't look very good, because you're busy screaming bloody murder instead of, you know, actually addressing Sparko's question.

                            By all means, I encourage you to establish anti-"anti-Mormon" classes. Your co-religionists can't all be so blindly committed to defending the indefensible.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                              Not all of the men were true to the faith, and not all of the men were in the position to support a family. So, the number of men is not the whole issue.



                              For starters, Joseph was sealed to many, many people without actually having sexual intercourse with all of them. At that point, he appears to have imagined that everyone would have to be sealed to everyone else in some way or another.

                              Second, this was an extremely difficult thing to do, and it wasn't always handled the right way. I cannot claim that I would be able to handle it well either.



                              50 years was enough time to establish them as a strong group in the western united states.

                              -7up
                              wow. and people wonder why "anti-mormonism" is making such headway into the LDS church, what which such awesomely juvenile rationalizations and answers as those.

                              astounding.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                wow. and people wonder why "anti-mormonism" is making such headway into the LDS church, what which such awesomely juvenile rationalizations and answers as those.

                                astounding.
                                You make him sound like a contributing author to FairMormon.org.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                                Comment

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