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Jesus decided not to come again because Joseph Smith died too early?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    So, no, Johah did not lie.
    That's what I said.
    ~Formerly known as Chrawnus~

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      That's what I said.
      Yes, I'm agreeing.
      "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

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      • #33
        Seven7UP the Uncola,

        This may sound strange to you but I read your response twice and I really have no idea what you are talking about. First of all the only thing I quoted was from his Journal which I read twice so if you think quoting from Joseph's Journal is bad information or a problem I think you can bring it up with Joseph. I do not think I pulled it out of context. I believe it is clear what Joseph was talking bout at the time. The quotes that you gave from the Bible are quite different because they don't mention a certain age of a person and of course a generation can mean many things and could mean the transfiguration etc.

        I think your quotes about Joseph saying that the second coming could not be known are interesting in light of his Journal. I honestly don't see how they can be reconciled. So I know you believe his journal must have some other meaning. But it is hard to think of another meaning. One possibility is Joseph saw revelation differently than I would. He may have seen it as very vague... God could give him a revelation that he was unclear about and then give another one completely different and that is in a sense OK because he is just doing his best to interpret these "signals" from god and he is really unclear about them. I actually after doing a lot of reading on him suspect that is the case.

        So could it be that Joseph even though he said the message was from God it.. Joseph sees revelation as him doing his best to interpret a feeling he gets about a subject that he believes is from God. So if he contradicts himself later it is OK because it really isn't God changing his mind it was just that his feeling about the revelation was incomplete.

        Sheesh... i am not describing this very well.... I tried.
        Last edited by DigitalInkling; 06-25-2014, 08:55 AM.

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        • #34
          7up: Look how you attempted to double down on the assertion that Mormons supposedly worship Joseph Smith. .... What is your evidence that we "worship" Joseph Smith?

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          If he is not, indeed, a true prophet, your entire religion falls apart. Besides Jesus, who is there about which the same thing can be said?
          It appears that you did not understand my question.

          I assert that LDS are taught to worship God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Spirit.

          On the other hand, you asserted that LDS "worship" Joseph Smith. I asked you what your evidence was for this assertion. In other words, do you have anything to back up the idea that Mormons treat Joseph Smith as our focus of worship, rather than worshiping God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Spirit.

          -7up

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
            Actually, Jonah did not prophecy any such thing, he only prophecied the destruction of Nineveh in 40 days. He still wasn't a false prophet or a liar though, as Jer 18:7-8 applied to the situation at hand. According to Jer 18:7-8 prophecies about nations and/or kingdoms being destroyed are conditional upon the willingness of the people of that nation/kingdom to repent of their evil ways.

            So, prophesies CAN be "conditional". Is that what you are saying?


            Joseph Smith's "prophesy" was not only conditional, but he was also left wondering if the Lord's visitation would be a more private event prior to Christ entering the world in power and glory to the world as described in Mark 13:26. I pointed to the Lord appearing in the Temple before many witnesses as an example of this possibility, a fulfillment of Joseph seeing the Lord before his death.

            However, there were 3 interpretations concerning what the Lord said, and Joseph Smith was considering these possibilities:

            "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to 1) the beginning of the millennium 2) or to some previous appearing, 3) or whether I should die and thus see his face" (D&C :130 - numbers added).

            -7up

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            • #36
              Originally posted by DigitalInkling View Post
              Seven7UP the Uncola,

              This may sound strange to you but I read your response twice and I really have no idea what you are talking about. ...
              Read the post I gave previous to this one. It is pretty clear what I am talking about.

              And then recall that there are Biblical examples of prophets and apostles of the Lord not comprehending what Jesus Christ meant. A recent example I gave was when the disciples heard Jesus teach that he would tear down the temple and raise it up in 3 days. They did not appreciate what Jesus was talking about until later:

              "21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken. " (bold added)

              There were many parables and teachings that Jesus gave which the disciples did not understand until much later.

              -7up

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              • #37
                Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                7up: Look how you attempted to double down on the assertion that Mormons supposedly worship Joseph Smith. .... What is your evidence that we "worship" Joseph Smith?
                You blindly accept him as a true prophet of God on his word alone, even allowing him to define Christ.

                It appears that you did not understand my question.

                I assert that LDS are taught to worship God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Spirit.
                Sure, assert all you want.

                On the other hand, you asserted that LDS "worship" Joseph Smith. I asked you what your evidence was for this assertion. In other words, do you have anything to back up the idea that Mormons treat Joseph Smith as our focus of worship, rather than worshiping God the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Spirit.
                Ah, so now you're moving the goalposts! I never said "rather".

                You allow a conman and a serial adulterer to define who Christ is. Then you "worship" THAT "Christ".
                "Neighbor, how long has it been since you’ve had a big, thick, steaming bowl of Wolf Brand Chili?”

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post

                  However, there were 3 interpretations concerning what the Lord said, and Joseph Smith was considering these possibilities:

                  "I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to 1) the beginning of the millennium 2) or to some previous appearing, 3) or whether I should die and thus see his face" (D&C 130:16 - numbers added).
                  Let's examine each of the three possible interpretations:

                  1) The prophecy was that Jesus would either return a) between Smith's 85th birthday and death or b) after Smith's death.

                  This was a rather curious prophecy, as God knew how long Smith would live and, unlike other conditional prophecies in the Bible, the condition depended on something that was not a matter of human choice. This would be like God saying, "If I decide to do A, then I will do B," as if he doesn't already know what he's decided.

                  Furthermore, if Smith had lived until 85, this would have greatly narrowed the timeframe for Jesus' return, in direct contradiction to Jesus' words and even Smith's words on the matter. It was highly unlikely for men in Smith's era to live to be 85; even if he lived to age 80, his life expectancy would be less than 86 (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005140.html, http://mappinghistory.uoregon.edu/en...S/US39-01.html).

                  7up, you argued that Joseph decided that 1) was not the correct interpretation:

                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  In LDS history, those last two options OCCURRED.

                  Therefore, it is clear that Joseph did not understand this to be a definitive prediction on the Second Coming. In fact, he did not have a clear understanding at all, nor should he, because God never intended on giving time for the second coming.
                  However, Joseph's own words show that he did consider it to be a possibility. For one, he followed D&C 130:16 with 130:17, "I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time." You qualify that as being only his opinion -- yet it was his opinion, and the context makes it clear that he at least understood the prophecy as saying the second coming would certainly not occur before his 85th birthday.

                  Do you consider other parts of LDS scriptures to be only the opinion of the writer, and not authoritative?

                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  Later, when some person was predicting the Second Coming in forty years, Joseph Smith said:

                  [COLOR="#4B0082"] I also prophesy, in the name of the Lord, that Christ will not come in forty years; and if God ever spoke by my mouth, He will not come in that length of time. Brethren, when you go home, write this down, that it may be remembered.
                  Surely he "knew" that Jesus would not come in the next forty years because of the prophecy he had been given.

                  2) The prophecy was that if Smith lived to be 85, he would see Jesus' face.

                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  In LDS history, those last two options OCCURRED.
                  But Smith didn't live to be 85. The only logical conclusions are:

                  a) The prophecy was a lie, since Smith's seeing Jesus while he was alive had nothing to do with his age

                  b) The prophecy was meaningless -- "If you live to be 85, you'll see Jesus, but you also will if you don't live to be 85."

                  c) Smith didn't actually see Jesus

                  d) This interpretation of the prophecy is wrong


                  3) The prophecy was that if Smith lived to be 85, he would see Jesus when he died.

                  Again, Smith didn't live to be 85. Yet surely you and other LDS believe that Smith made it to whatever level of heaven would allow him to see Jesus. Again, the only logical conclusions are:

                  a) The prophecy was a lie, since Smith's seeing Jesus upon his death had nothing to do with his age

                  b) The prophecy was meaningless -- "If you live to be 85, you'll see Jesus when you die, but you also will if you don't live to be 85."

                  c) Smith didn't see Jesus when he died

                  d) This interpretation of the prophecy is wrong


                  It looks to me like you're stuck with interpretation #1.



                  Originally posted by seven7up View Post
                  A recent example I gave was when the disciples heard Jesus teach that he would tear down the temple and raise it up in 3 days. They did not appreciate what Jesus was talking about until later:

                  "21 But he was speaking about the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken. " (bold added)

                  There were many parables and teachings that Jesus gave which the disciples did not understand until much later.
                  They didn't understand them until later -- when they had received the Holy Spirit.

                  Source: ESV


                  When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (John 16:13)

                  these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit...Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God... “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Corinthians 2:10-12, 16)

                  © Copyright Original Source



                  If Smith had the Holy Spirit to guide him into all the truth and give him the mind of Christ, and was hearing directly from God, why was he still confused? How come he couldn't even use reason to rule out interpretation #3 -- surely he didn't think that he would only be saved if he lived to be 85?

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